RAGE : It Deserves its own thread now!

[ultragpu]

Are they still shooting for the 60fps experience on Rage as promised last time? Hard to imagine the consoles could achieve that with such a level of details. But I'm most interested in Doom4 though, I still can't picture what do they mean by saying twice as more detailed as Rage.

 

[P on the rocks]

Richard, I don't see an intention on your part to understand, why people would want shorter games. You just want to make a point that you want 20+ hour games.

This is obonicus' point also. I've been in this discussion before so forgive the brevity but, by that rational if there's a game that lasts only 10 mins but gives you an orgasm then you'll willingly pay 50 euros for it? Now you may have not liked DOOM 3's gameplay: that's completely fair and yes, in a vacuum, better gameplay > more gameplay.

- What I said was more like it's more important to have enough variety so that the player doesn't get bored than stretch the same gameplay elements to a longer game so that the buyer gets more hours per buck.

- I already said I don't pay 50€ for games. Nobody really has to do that.

- I never said that I didn't like Doom 3 gameplay.

- It might surprise you to find out that there is a big market for experiences that cost 50€/$, only last a couple of minutes to an hour at most and end with an orgasm. These experiences are not video games or games per se but people place great value in their orgasms.

- If a modern and worthy successor to SNES Contra came out, I would gladly pay full price for it. I paid the equivalent of 50€ for a game that typically lasts 25 minutes back then and I would do it again.

But I'm getting sidetracked; my main point is: if you want the game to be shorter you have a solution: skip some levels, even some console games give you this option now (see latest Alone in the Dark). If, on the other hand, you're like me and prefer if the game is longer you have NO solution except start from the beginning.

...or play the side-missions which in open world games like FarCry 2 make up 3/4 of the game.

...or try to get all the achievements.

Again, not liking D3 is a completely valid argument for disliking its length however don't rain on my parade. I'm now playing through DOOM 3 for the 7th time, I'm 1/3rd of the way in and there's no level of the 27 total levels that I can remember (and I remember nearly ALL of them) that I'd throw away. There's not even a part that I feel "hmm... padding". But that's it, I LOVED the game. If you didn't and want to get it over with, bring down the console, type "map <NameOfMap>" and hit enter.

Again, I liked the gameplay mechanics but I got bored towards the end because the game didn't offer anything new. You might notice reading this thread that I am not the only one. And I hope you understand that I don't jump levels because I don't like gimped experiences.

 

[Richard]

Richard, I don't see an intention on your part to understand, why people would want shorter games. You just want to make a point that you want 20+ hour games.

I understand where you're coming from, I just happen to disagree with it and don't feel your arguments are making a dent.

- What I said was more like it's more important to have enough variety so that the player doesn't get bored than stretch the same gameplay elements to a longer game so that the buyer gets more hours per buck.

We don't disagree here.

- If a modern and worthy successor to SNES Contra came out, I would gladly pay full price for it. I paid the equivalent of 50€ for a game that typically lasts 25 minutes back then and I would do it again.

We disagree here.

You felt DOOM 3 was too long. Whether you didn't like the gameplay or found some levels to be boring or repetitive is immaterial to my core argument: you asking for that game to be shorter is directly affecting my enjoyment of it. You have a solution for long games, I don't have a solution for short games.

...or play the side-missions which in open world games like FarCry 2 make up 3/4 of the game.

This is a perfect example actually. I disliked FarCry 2 for the repetitive missions, having to travel half-way across the map to shoot someone and get back to my homebase. I played the game until I finished all the faction missions and then I had to do the other faction and people on the net were saying the game still had a lot more boring missions to go through. I didn't go around the web posting that the game ought to be shorter; because somewhere, somehow there's a guy that maybe enjoyed the heck out of those boring missions. I don't want to rain on his parade since I can either cheat my way through the game or uninstall it (which I did).

...or try to get all the achievements.

Another great example: I dislike achievements, especially the ones like "stab 10.000 guys upside the dead" when the game only has 1.000 in the whole game. I find those achievements flagrant attempts at getting your fanbase NOT buy your competitor's games once they're finished with yours. And yet, I don't go around posting that I feel all future games shouldn't have achievements. Hey, some people like them. I don't want to rain on their parade.

And I hope you understand that I don't jump levels because I don't like gimped experiences.

To me, removing any of the 27 levels from DOOM 3 is gimping the experience. Since DOOM 3 doesn't have achievements or side missions (except the alternative route on Enprom), at least you have a solution to your problem. But hey, I'm a DOOM nut and I loved DOOM 3.

 

[obonicus]

This is obonicus' point also. I've been in this discussion before so forgive the brevity but, by that rational if there's a game that lasts only 10 mins but gives you an orgasm then you'll willingly pay 50 euros for it? Now you may have not liked DOOM 3's gameplay: that's completely fair and yes, in a vacuum, better gameplay > more gameplay. But if you start accepting that a 50 euro game today can have half the length of a game that retailed for 50 euros ten years ago with the same gameplay "intensity" then we'll start getting games like Prey or Max Payne, CoD4 (10 hours with infinite respawns), etc.

Okay, let's turn it around, since we're going for extremes. Would you want a game that lasts 5000 hours but is an utter chore to play? Clearly there's a sweet spot and I can't see how artificially padding a game to meet some required length makes it a better game -- in fact, I would argue the opposite, it makes it worse, it might make it a game I won't finish. I certainly would prefer to get Max Payne again over DOOM 3 (as new games, clearly).

Edit: I see that you hold DOOM 3 in enormous esteem. That's something you and I won't be able to agree on -- I don't think id (as developer) has made a good singleplayer game since DOOM2.

 

[AlNom]

EDIT: It wasn't a scan ! Its a screenshot from here :

Atleast that is what their site says !

They reference Game Informer magazine, plus it's pretty clear from the printing's DPI ... Some of the screenshots even have artifacts at the edges that surely wouldn't be due to a direct screengrab. If you checked the main news article, they do in fact mention scans.

 

[Richard]

Okay, let's turn it around, since we're going for extremes. Would you want a game that lasts 5000 hours but is an utter chore to play?

Versus an equal priced game that lasts 10 mins and gives an orgasm? Yes.

Clearly there's a sweet spot and I can't see how artificially padding a game to meet some required length makes it a better game -- in fact, I would argue the opposite, it makes it worse, it might make it a game I won't finish.

As I mentioned in my previous post, better gameplay > more gameplay. We don't disagree here. What apparently we disagree on is that you seem to think that a game can only have one or the other. I think giving developers slack on length assures that view.

I've been modding games since 1994, worked on two (failed) TCs in the mid and late nineties and I'm a software developer and I can tell you it's FAR too easy to devolve into "this is taking too long, let's cut some corners and ship it" mode during a project. This isn't a new thing for me. For example, after playing the demo and reading comments about the length on the intertubes I only bought Prey when I found it for 20 euros. There's no way I'm paying more for a 5 hour game, no matter how good it is.

Getting back on topic (Rage). If the game really does have side quests and depending on how good the multiplayer is the length of the main quest doesn't need to be huge. Oblivion had a pretty short main quest and no multiplayer and yet I've sunk over 150 hours into the game despite the ridiculous dialogue and VO, repetitive fetch/kill quests, boring Oblivion gate quests, etc. If Rage has the breath I can forgive a short length but id isn't known for open-world games.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Edit: I see that you hold DOOM 3 in enormous esteem. That's something you and I won't be able to agree on -- I don't think id (as developer) has made a good singleplayer game since DOOM2.

Add me to that one. Doom 3 just did not feel like Doom 1 or 2 in any way shape or form.

I STILL like replaying Doom 1/2. I will never EVER touch Doom 3 again.

I do have hopes for Rage however. Without any expectations due to being tied to past games, it should offer a fresh experience hopefully.

Regards,
SB

 

[ban25]

Edit: I see that you hold DOOM 3 in enormous esteem. That's something you and I won't be able to agree on -- I don't think id (as developer) has made a good singleplayer game since DOOM2.

Those were the days! It really hasn't got any better than DOOM 2, has it?

 

[Betanumerical]

Edit: I see that you hold DOOM 3 in enormous esteem. That's something you and I won't be able to agree on -- I don't think id (as developer) has made a good singleplayer game since DOOM2.

I love the quake games

Quake 3 the most, even though single player is just multiplayer with bots, it works.

If they can really hit 60fps on the consoles with aa and af it would be great, but i dont think the game is going to have aa (have they mentioned if it will yet)?

 

[deathindustrial]

I don't think id (as developer) has made a good singleplayer game since DOOM2.

I am totally with you on Doom 3 - one of the programmers desperately needed to limit the recursion in the monster closet routine.

But you really didn't like the single player from Quake? It's a toss up for me whether I enjoyed that or Descent more as far as games from that era.

Cheers

 

[RenegadeRocks]

They reference Game Informer magazine, plus it's pretty clear from the printing's DPI ... Some of the screenshots even have artifacts at the edges that surely wouldn't be due to a direct screengrab. If you checked the main news article, they do in fact mention scans.

Yeah ! Sorry ! I posted it as soon as I found it, and the topic said Screenshots that appeared in this month's GI. I assumed that since Scans won't feature in a site(unless posted by some user in a forum, not by the site itself), they were badly compressed Screenshots ! But . yes, they appear to be scans. Sorry, will chk before posting next time.

On the other hand, AF seems missing in the scans of the GI article. I think not mentioning AF in the differences of the PC version is just a skip by the dev. I am guessing, They just forgot to mention AF differences or the lack of in the consoles. I still hope they can bring it in by the time this ships !

 

[Blazkowicz]

I hope the game runs better than the website (about 10fps, wiith 100% CPU usage)

 

[RenegadeRocks]

and don't worry Richard , I am with you, I loved Doom 3 ! though never played the expansion as I was STALKER then and it was too big a change to go fro STALKER to Resurrection !

OTOH, any new stuff on the website of RAGE?

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Apparently a new trailer here ! I haven't seen it yet !

http://www.eurogamer.pt/videos/rage-novo-trailer?size=large

Extremely fallout-ish trailer ! Bethesda effect? The visuals look Great !

 

[jakobx]

Fallout trailers are great so i understand why they tried to emulate their approach. IMO they failed. The humor is just not there. From the trailer it seems that they stilll havent figured out how to display colors other than red and black and the animation is still very wooden. Doesnt mean it will be a bad game. What worries me the most is something that i read just today (could have been on fudzilla..dont kill me). According to them (or someone else..dont remember) Carmack said the game is best played with a gamepad even on a pc. How can they make a mouse&keyboard combination worse than a gamepad which is pretty much useless as an input device for fps style games.

 

[obonicus]

But you really didn't like the single player from Quake? It's a toss up for me whether I enjoyed that or Descent more as far as games from that era.

Maybe I misspoke. I keep thinking that DOOM2 was on a different level, but yeah, Quake 1 was fun. It makes me think that when Sandy Petersen and Romero etc. left, id may have lost talent it wasn't able to easily replace, for all that we mock Romero.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Fallout trailers are great so i understand why they tried to emulate their approach. IMO they failed. The humor is just not there. From the trailer it seems that they stilll havent figured out how to display colors other than red and black and the animation is still very wooden. Doesnt mean it will be a bad game. What worries me the most is something that i read just today (could have been on fudzilla..dont kill me). According to them (or someone else..dont remember) Carmack said the game is best played with a gamepad even on a pc. How can they make a mouse&keyboard combination worse than a gamepad which is pretty much useless as an input device for fps style games.

Perhaps driving features heavily and driving is easier with a controller. While you can have analog left right with a mouse, it's hard to have analog acceleration and breaking with keyboard and mouse. Moving the mouse forward and backwards just isn't very precise or easy for that.

Regards,
SB

 

[betan]

Carmack says 360 version of rage is up to 3 times faster than PS3

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=220530
(via Edge)

MOD EDIT: Read this before posting.

 

[AlNom]

Sounds like problems with the SPUs...

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Wow, that's some fuel on the fire...