PlayStation suite
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jeff_rigby
Banned
I guess the reason that Sony has "Certified to be PS Suite compatible" is also because of the above. Besides the necessary hardware, libraries in the OS just as with libraries in webkit may be missing for the reason you mentioned above.
Perhaps W3C and Webkit compliance data could be tacked onto the certification information for PS Suite. I'm kinda guessing that PS Suite compliant platforms might also be W3C and Webkit compliant, there being no need to leave things out of Webkit if they have the minimum 512 meg of ram and Android 2.3.
This can be another reason for the entire industry to look to Sony for certification of their platform and consumers to buy only Sony certified. By this standard, the PS3 is not at this time PS Suite compatible.
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jeff_rigby
Banned
Exactly. The webkit port to the PS3 that started with the HTML5 javascript port to the PS3 to support IPTV UI will be continued with Open source OS libraries needed to support Webkit and those same libraries and changes to the PS3 OS could be used by Opera with their new 2.9 device SDK.
Sony can be cheap and port webkit using their own front end or they can switch and port Opera.
There is also that routines in webkit are used by other applications, programs and possibly games.
In any case I expect the Web browser is also a project where Google and Sony are closely connected. It may only be specifications which might include features that are coming from Google.
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jeff_rigby
Banned
I don't know if this belongs in this form as it's somewhat technical. It doesn't belong in the Technical discussions for the PSP2 as it's apparently not technical enough and goes over what most of the posters should already know.
It does provide a basic understanding of modern OSs seen in embedded SOC in the new Sony TV as well as what I believe Sony intended with their Snap developer program and possibly what we are seeing with the PSP2 OS. As such it's a good background to explain how PS Suite can easily port between platforms.
In summary, Android, the PS3, SOC in CE equipment and the PSP2 use the POSIX standard. In Android a minimal set of Open System libraries support the Android OS. Many of those same libraries are in the Sony Snap developer program and I would guess are in the PSP2. Since all follow the same POSIX standard and use the same or similar libraries of routines, that must work the same way, it's possible to port games and applications between platforms provided you have the "C" routines before they are compiled to machine language. The POSIX OS can be scaled back to fit in SOC for CE equipment by removing libraries that are not needed to support, for instance, a TV.
Making this easier are Open Standards for graphics called OpenGL also supported on Android, PS3, PSP2 and Broadcom SOC for CE.
I would guess that a "C" library to Android compiler was developed, probably by Google, that can work by taking the known "C" library calls of the PSP2 developer IDE and convert them to Android "C". It would help if both Android and the PSP2 used the same Open Source libraries to build their OS.
EDIT: The impression I first got because of ignorance was that PS Suite converted "C" to Android bytecode but the conversion is most likely to Android "C" (See link below) and less likely to Android bytecode. This, I imagine, creates many restrictions when writing the "C" code for PS Suite and with this the Open source libraries for the PSP2 are even more likely to be exactly the same as Android 2.3.
Exactly the same = same name, same data structure and function. The code inside the calls in the libraries is of course native to each machine. This is how "C" is portable. In this case NGP or PSP2 has to have all the open source support, "C" library calls, that the target platform has. POSIX and OpenGL created standards so this is possible between POSIX platforms.
http://droidfreeapps.com/2011/01/apps-written-in-c-and-c-can-now-be-ported-to-android/
As long as developers use the known "C" libraries in the NGP development program and they don't require hardware features not in a target port, Sony can create a system to easily port between platforms and the system to do this is called PS Suite.
Edit: The PS3 follows the POSIX standard and I was informed that the in progress port of Webkit to the PS3 would be a POSIX Cairo port. Many of the libraries for a modern PC "windows" OS needed by Webkit are missing and need to be added to the PS3. I expect that the libraries will be exactly the same as the NGP -PSP2 - Android allowing for an easier port for applications and games from PS-Suite. So AFTER the webkit port and a new browser is activated we will see applications ported to the PS3 from the PS Suite channel. This also means a significant change to the XMB is coming.
"C" has always been portable and the above has always been possible but for a company to build an "ecosystem" around this for many third party developers to use is revolutionary. Creating the Standard, automating the process, creating a store to sell the end result, this is new and for the first targeted platform, Android, Sony has a catalog of Games they can port to prime the pump.
It's also possible to do the following with Mandreel
http://www.mandreel.com/
In the above left the Hardware platforms are POSIX and ETC = PS3, NGP or PSP2, 2011 Broadcom SOC for TV and BLu-ray and more.
Also interesting in the above is the claim to convert "C" to HTML5. This if true makes HTML5 more powerful than I imagined.
The following is in support of the above and is not necessary unless you doubt the above or want to more fully understand.
http://support7.qnx.com/download/download/19524/sys_arch.pdf
[
It does provide a basic understanding of modern OSs seen in embedded SOC in the new Sony TV as well as what I believe Sony intended with their Snap developer program and possibly what we are seeing with the PSP2 OS. As such it's a good background to explain how PS Suite can easily port between platforms.
In summary, Android, the PS3, SOC in CE equipment and the PSP2 use the POSIX standard. In Android a minimal set of Open System libraries support the Android OS. Many of those same libraries are in the Sony Snap developer program and I would guess are in the PSP2. Since all follow the same POSIX standard and use the same or similar libraries of routines, that must work the same way, it's possible to port games and applications between platforms provided you have the "C" routines before they are compiled to machine language. The POSIX OS can be scaled back to fit in SOC for CE equipment by removing libraries that are not needed to support, for instance, a TV.
Making this easier are Open Standards for graphics called OpenGL also supported on Android, PS3, PSP2 and Broadcom SOC for CE.
I would guess that a "C" library to Android compiler was developed, probably by Google, that can work by taking the known "C" library calls of the PSP2 developer IDE and convert them to Android "C". It would help if both Android and the PSP2 used the same Open Source libraries to build their OS.
EDIT: The impression I first got because of ignorance was that PS Suite converted "C" to Android bytecode but the conversion is most likely to Android "C" (See link below) and less likely to Android bytecode. This, I imagine, creates many restrictions when writing the "C" code for PS Suite and with this the Open source libraries for the PSP2 are even more likely to be exactly the same as Android 2.3.
Exactly the same = same name, same data structure and function. The code inside the calls in the libraries is of course native to each machine. This is how "C" is portable. In this case NGP or PSP2 has to have all the open source support, "C" library calls, that the target platform has. POSIX and OpenGL created standards so this is possible between POSIX platforms.
http://droidfreeapps.com/2011/01/apps-written-in-c-and-c-can-now-be-ported-to-android/
As long as developers use the known "C" libraries in the NGP development program and they don't require hardware features not in a target port, Sony can create a system to easily port between platforms and the system to do this is called PS Suite.
Edit: The PS3 follows the POSIX standard and I was informed that the in progress port of Webkit to the PS3 would be a POSIX Cairo port. Many of the libraries for a modern PC "windows" OS needed by Webkit are missing and need to be added to the PS3. I expect that the libraries will be exactly the same as the NGP -PSP2 - Android allowing for an easier port for applications and games from PS-Suite. So AFTER the webkit port and a new browser is activated we will see applications ported to the PS3 from the PS Suite channel. This also means a significant change to the XMB is coming.
"C" has always been portable and the above has always been possible but for a company to build an "ecosystem" around this for many third party developers to use is revolutionary. Creating the Standard, automating the process, creating a store to sell the end result, this is new and for the first targeted platform, Android, Sony has a catalog of Games they can port to prime the pump.
It's also possible to do the following with Mandreel
http://www.mandreel.com/
In the above left the Hardware platforms are POSIX and ETC = PS3, NGP or PSP2, 2011 Broadcom SOC for TV and BLu-ray and more.
Also interesting in the above is the claim to convert "C" to HTML5. This if true makes HTML5 more powerful than I imagined.
The following is in support of the above and is not necessary unless you doubt the above or want to more fully understand.
http://support7.qnx.com/download/download/19524/sys_arch.pdf
[
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Woah... ok, what kind of connections are you making here? Why are you trying to relate different things together based on their use of a standardized library? At least, that's what I think you're saying. Something along the lines of:
PS3 developers use POSIX C libraries, Wii developers use POSIX C libraries; therefore, Wii OS will run within the PS3! Conclusion: Move+PS3 = WiiHD.
Can they port AndroidOS to the PS3? Sure, why not... outside the architectural challenges posed by memory limitations and processor compatibility, why not? Does it make sense? No.
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You mean :
PS3 + Move ( (WiiHD))
Which isn't all wrong, although you can debate about to what side each of the ')' belong.
In this case I would summarise that yes, applications written in C and targeting OpenGL can be setup so that they can be recompiled to Android, NGP or PS3. But what that means? Very little. In the end, it all comes down to the libraries available on each platform for doing a variety of OS and network related stuff. And then there's the little issue of the PS3 having the Cell processor ...
jeff_rigby
Banned
Points I was trying to make:
1) How PS Suite could work
2) Open Source Libraries for Android, NGP and PS3 WILL be very very similar
3) Using PS Suite to port apps to PS3 is possible after Webkit but NOT now.
Using PS Suite you can not port Android apps to either the NGP or PS3. Outside of PS Suite you can do so but then it's not automated. And Android on the PS3 is not now likely.
The last picture was not a suggestion of anything, it just shows Posix "C" porting between platforms is possible and even between languages. It also shows a third party company providing the tools to support porting games to Windows Phone 7, an Android competitor, just as Sony is providing the tools to port games to Android.
The Snap developer program was put on hold Nov 27, 2010. The "C" Open Source libraries in it were very similar to Android libraries. PS Suite will probably become the Developer platform for Sony products and the "C" open source libraries in it may be exactly the same as in Android. The core can be scaled back by removing unused libraries for platforms like TVs. Webkit will be a part of the "C" library.
makattack: I just reread this thread and your Android NDK quote is the same as in my post. Others are making the assumption that the PS Suite port to Android is byte code which both your and my quote of the Android NDK mentions "C" to Android "C".
My Opinion
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jeff_rigby
Banned
You mean :
PS3 + Move ( (WiiHD))
Which isn't all wrong, although you can debate about to what side each of the ')' belong.
In this case I would summarise that yes, applications written in C and targeting OpenGL can be setup so that they can be recompiled to Android, NGP or PS3. But what that means? Very little. In the end, it all comes down to the libraries available on each platform for doing a variety of OS and network related stuff. And then there's the little issue of the PS3 having the Cell processor ...
Gesh, better summary...to one line.
The assumption is that a "C" library exists for the PS3 and will be supplemented with the libraries in the PSP2. OF course each higher level "C" call is either built on multiple lower level calls or assembly. The PS3 Cell requiring much hand coding. EDIT: In firmware are libraries of routines built on Open source libraries shared with most Posix OS. Many of these are missing in the PS3.
The Webkit javascript engine JIT compiles to native language and many have stated that would be difficult and some impossible. It's done and "more to follow".
The libraries are the KEY to making ports easier.
Many libraries are missing from the PS3 and Applications have not been coming for the PS3 (besides games) and those that do are MASSIVE because I believe they must include the routines as the PS3 does not have the libraries that can be called as needed.
What webkit meant for the PS3 was those libraries, since required by a Webkit port and needed for applications, were coming with webkit which meant applications would come when Webkit was finished. PS Suite now implies the libraries have already been chosen and will be similar to and may be exactly the same as in Android. (The last time I said that I got jumped on.)
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jeff_rigby
Banned
2/28/11 we may get information.....small bits so we can feel comfortable for more speculating without feeling a draft on our necks.
Edit: POSIX is a given. The extensions if there is a standard for "Windows and surface management" need to be similar and if there is no standard for "windows" it would make it again important that Android, PSP2 and PS3 use similar libraries or standards. The Snap developer program was using Next step and this may have changed.
I'd really like a timetable. I have the feeling that the Software engineers have been waiting for upstairs to come to a decision. In the meantime they tentatively put forth the half completed, half thought out SNAP program then pulled it. Now that PS Suite appears to have the FULL support of every one at Sony things should happen quickly....maybe.
Well we did have some questions answered, like why was the Snap program put on hold.
Cross platform is the new buzz word at Sony and Android does play a large part in Sony's future. We now know how the PSN can show a 10X increase in revenue.
I wonder when they will tell us that "Home" will be available cross platform. 3.6 with cloud saves allows a game to be started on the PS3 and continued on a tablet or PC. The same update will probably have other features to support cross platform or tie into server support for the PS3, ALL Cloud features.
http://psoneclassics.com/miscellaneous/what-online-features-will-the-psp2-have-guesses/
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jeff_rigby
Banned
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/107/1070771p1.html
Feb 2010
Look familiar
Notice the upper right touchscreen device looks like the NGP. The patent was probably an attempt to patent, as much as possible, multiple representations of older game controllers on touch screen platforms. It gives us a date where this was being discussed inside Sony.
Feb 2010
Look familiar
Notice the upper right touchscreen device looks like the NGP. The patent was probably an attempt to patent, as much as possible, multiple representations of older game controllers on touch screen platforms. It gives us a date where this was being discussed inside Sony.
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Interesting. You'd think that in addition to what they do for multiple platforms (and we've seen an example of this for Playstation One games on Android phones with only a touch screen already by the way), there are some interesting opportunities here also on the NGP. I haven't paid attention to the BluTooth capabilities of the NGP, but I definitely see it working as a full fledged PS3 controller + (as in with extra functions).
corduroygt
Banned
Given today's results of Sony financials and how the Networked products division cushioned the fall of LCD sales, it'd be wise for Sony to put the NGP inside TV's as well, I think. A cheap ARM SOC isn't going to cost a lot and they can sell simple games and movies directly from the PS store. Of course I don't expect Sony to do this...
jeff_rigby
Banned
The current Sony 2011 TV with Opera browser has a Broadcom SOC with two 1 Ghz + Mips processors and features OpenGL and Flash 10.1 support. I think Processing power is good enough for PS1 games. It is probably already one of the PS Suite target platforms.
corduroygt
Banned
If Asus can license Primesense tech, there is no reason Sony can't and make "Kinect games" without a console too as well.
What has that got to do with PSS? It's just a handheld interface device. The reason it looks similar to NGP is because every handheld controller with a touch screen will look similar. The significant different no buttons. And in that respect it's a dumb invention, as all that's needed is a protocol for using BT devices and runnign a controller app, so iPhone and Android phones can be used as controllers. It bares no significance for PSSuite which is a software platform.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Chicken and egg; The patent describes how PS Suite puts PS1 and PS3 controllers on Android and possibly iOS devices using touch screens. The Date gives us an idea when and how Sony decided to port games to, I think, first iOS then Android platforms.
It also indicates that several generations and multiple game platforms are going to port through PS Suite.
The patent may make it difficult for others to port games to touchscreen handhelds and tablets. Sony may have a lock on handhelds and tablets but not on desktops where alternate controllers are available.
You missed the possible implications when you assumed it only applied to a separate controller. My read of the below link to the patent has the NGP as a possible user of the patent when playing games from other platforms on the PS3, Sony TVs and more. Android devices too could use the patent with games on TVs and the PS3. I do not know if it specifically covers an Android touchscreen playing a game on the same device with controller emulated by the touchscreen. I think it does apply.
http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.html&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=20100041480.PGNR.&OS=dn/20100041480&RS=DN/20100041480
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Ummm, no, it doesn't.
A software interface on a touch screen for a game is nothing new and as such unpatentable.You don't assume anything with patents. There can't be room for misinterpration. A patent is surmised in its first claim, all other claims being derivative.
This claim is :
Any claims Sony may make to owning the rights to adaptable interfaces on a handheld smartphone are lost by specificying categorically that this patent governs only controllers for a conosle, and not a device containing one or more processing elements with one or more memory and storage elements that allows for the playing of games in a handheld form factor.
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