RAGE : It Deserves its own thread now!

[Weaste]

The problem is here that we have absolutely no context to the comments made in Edge, yet Internet sites such as NeoGAF still have half of their membership having breakdowns over it, with the other half barracking them on. Very funny when this type of thing happens.

 

[Brad Grenz]

I'm wondering if they're currently vertex limited on the PS3 and they are working towards moving the vertex load away from the RSX and onto the SPUs.

 

[Weaste]

I'm wondering if they're currently vertex limited on the PS3 and they are working towards moving the vertex load away from the RSX and onto the SPUs.

Isn't that what Olick and his staff would have been doing for a while? The engine has been in development for quite some time.

The RSX is slower than what we have in the 360. The CPU is about the same, but the 360 makes it easier to split things off, and that's what a lot of the work has been, splitting it all into jobs on the PS3.

That quote alone could support my guess, your guess, or many other guesses because it's so ambiguous.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

The problem is here that we have absolutely no context to the comments made in Edge, yet Internet sites such as NeoGAF still have half of their membership having breakdowns over it, with the other half barracking them on. Very funny when this type of thing happens.

You should see what happened to Neogaf when Al Strong revealed Modern Warfare 2 runs at 600p. It was a riot.

 

[Rangers]

I can't read the original Edge source because for about week now the website comes up as apperently undergoing maintenance, through IE8, Firefox, and Google+TinyURL links. Anyone else having that problem?

Not here.

Anyways, the Edge magazine supposedly comes out monday. There should be scans on the web soon, so we can get the full contexts and hopefully some sexy new pics..

 

[Richard]

http://www.gamezine.co.uk/news/games/r/rage/carmack-rage-faster-on-xbox-360-and-pc-$1315438.htm
The editor of that CVG article was either unprofessional or being extremely selective in quoting.

You're being too kind.

 

[ultragpu]

You're being too kind.

Didn't think a respectable website like CVG would manipulate some words from a dev just to what, generate hits?

 

[Weaste]

Didn't think a respectable website like CVG would manipulate some words from a dev just to what, generate hits?

No, but it's selectively quoting (without context) an Edge interview that seems to be highly ambiguous in itself. From the larger snippets I've read, I'm currently taking it that the game code (gameplay logic, AI, physics, etc.), runs almost exactly the same on both PS3 and XB360 (the CPU comment), yet the renderer is currently running slower on the PS3 but is seriously glitchy on the XB360 (the RSX comment). Who knows, maybe they'll have to downgrade both to get them running smoothly. You really can't tell because of the lack of context and ambiguity.

 

[KongRudi]

We keep hearing about this, and comments about Carmack being a PC developer, etc. So what the hell did he hire Olick for? Surely the whole purpose of that was to get the core of the engine running well on the PS3? Of course we know that RSX is slightly weaker than Xenos, but not 40fps weaker.

Well, it don't sound so bad when I read the Gamezine.co.uk article, wich were better quoted. I only read the CVG-article.

I just tought that since Raven were busy with Wolfenstein, ID were perhaps lacking their normal console-go-to-guys.
However, I guess Olick could be concidered one of those partners of ID Software, I spoke about, if they've hired him to help.
If it's necessary to delay it to make it competitive with the other FPS coming, I think they should do it.

I don't think Olick sits down alone and reenginer every part of the PS3-version of the Rage-engine wich dosn't port automatically.
I think it's more likely that his function is advising ID's own programmers and telling them wich solutions worked for them, and oversee their efforts on moving the engine over to PS3.

 

[Weaste]

Take this with a big handful of salt, as it's from the Wikipedia article regarding iD Software's megatexture technology, and typically has no citation supporting the text.

id Tech 6 will use a more advanced technique that builds upon the MegaTexture idea and virtualizes both the geometry and the textures to obtain unique geometry down to the equivalent of the texel: the Sparse Voxel Octree (SVO). It works by raycasting the geometry represented by voxels (instead of triangles) stored in an octree. The goal being to be able to stream parts of the octree into video memory, going further down along the tree for nearby objects to give them more details, and to use higher level, larger voxels for further objects, which give an automatic level of detail (LOD) system for both geometry and textures at the same time. The geometric detail that can be obtained using this method is nearly infinite, which removes the need for faking 3-dimensional details with techniques such as normal mapping. Despite that most Voxel rendering tests use very large amounts of memory (up to several Gb), Jon Olick of id Software claimed it's able to compress such SVO to 1.15 bits per voxel of position data.

The main drawback of the Sparse Voxel Octree is the need for fast updating of the octree in order to represent dynamic objects. However, Jon Olick gave examples of alternatives which would not require this, but cautioned that their use would probably be better suited for id Tech 7. For id Tech 6, SVO will therefore be used for representing static geometry such as terrains and buildings. Dynamic objects such as vehicles and characters will be represented by rasterized polygons as is the case in most 3D games today.

It's talking about iD tech 6, not 5 that is to be used in RAGE, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the two share a common if differing approach. It would be nice to see a paper or presentation on how iD tech 5 handles its megatextures for comparison. The talk about LOD however may (or not) go towards explaining the flickering issues that were mentioned on the 360. Maybe the PS3 is using system that can process the octree better (Olick is specifically mentioned) but with the risk of a reduced frame rate? Did Olick change the PS3 version of the engine?

I know, it's all speculation, does anyone here know exactly how iD tech 5 is supposed to be dealing with megatextures?

 

[-tkf-]

I guess that the interview with carmack has him describing where they are with the game and the different versions. Could be in context with why they plan for a 2010 release and him giving some good examples

I think that if they hit 60hz but had to lower the resolution or in some other way make significant compromises that they then have proven they can´t handle the PS3 platform. I hope they have someone else on the team with the needed knowledge, and i wonder why they let the other one go?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think that if they hit 60hz but had to lower the resolution or in some other way make significant compromises that they then have proven they can´t handle the PS3 platform.

Or the PS3 platform can't handle the game!

 

[deepbrown]

I guess that the interview with carmack has him describing where they are with the game and the different versions. Could be in context with why they plan for a 2010 release and him giving some good examples

I think that if they hit 60hz but had to lower the resolution or in some other way make significant compromises that they then have proven they can´t handle the PS3 platform. I hope they have someone else on the team with the needed knowledge, and i wonder why they let the other one go?

Sigh, people are saying they want them all to be 60Hrz, which is not the same as 60fps. I'm not stupid...but they're the same right?

 

[nightshade]

Sigh, people are saying they want them all to be 60Hrz, which is not the same as 60fps. I'm not stupid...but they're the same right?

Even I dont know if its the same or not but IIRC I saw a 60hz logo on back of my Gears of War 2 disc which is [for those who dont know] a 30FPS game.
Can someone throw some light on this matter ?

 

[DrJay24]

Sigh, people are saying they want them all to be 60Hrz, which is not the same as 60fps. I'm not stupid...but they're the same right?

Hertz is cycles per second, or in the case of images you could say frames per second. Of course you can have a 30fps game displayed at 60Hz

 

[nightshade]

Hertz is cycles per second, or in the case of images you could say frames per second. Of course you can have a 30fps game displayed at 60Hz

Have we seen ID ever mentioning 60FPS, rather than usual 60Hz they keep talking about ?
If no, then I guess its pretty much possible that Rage will be a 30FPS game in the end.

 

[deepbrown]

Hertz is cycles per second, or in the case of images you could say frames per second. Of course you can have a 30fps game displayed at 60Hz

This is how I see it. Hrz refers to a moniters refresh rate. Most HDTV's are 60Hrz (which means how many frames they can display in a second.)

If you say Hrz in reference to a game engine, then you're actually talking about the frames-pre-second. Correct?

 

[psorcerer]

Sigh, people are saying they want them all to be 60Hrz, which is not the same as 60fps. I'm not stupid...but they're the same right?

Carmack always says Hz instead of fps, because "fps" is not a correct term.
There is a frame time which is measured in (m)sec, so the frame frequency is measured in 1/sec = Hz.

 

[Richard]

From EDGE Magazine:

As part of our look at id’s new multiformat shooter-cum-driver Rage featured in the new issue of Edge, out in UK shops on Monday, we saw that the frame rate of the PS3 version currently lags some way behind the 360’s.

The 360 version matches the PC’s 60 FPS while the PS3’s framerate runs at just 20-30 FPS. “The PS3 does lag a little bit behind in terms of getting the performance out of it,” Carmack acknowledges.

“The rasteriser is just a little bit slower – no two ways about that. The RSX is slower than what we have in the 360. Processing wise, the main CPU is about the same, but the 360 makes it easier to split things off, and that’s where a lot of the work has been, splitting it all into jobs on the PS3.”

He is, however, confident that the PS3 version will match that of all other supported platforms: “Everything is designed as a 60 hertz game. We expect this to be 60 hertz on every supported platform.”

“The work remaining is getting it locked so there’s never a dropped frame or a tear, but we’re confident that we’re going to get that.”

Emphasis mine; quote in full from their website, but do visit for a (small) peek at a new screenshot.

Weaste: Rage is using id Tech 5 which does not use voxels: it's straight polys except there are no discrete textures.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Hz = FPS regards game display. No developer would talk about a 60Hz and spit out a 10 fps! I guess a possible exception to that would be underlying game engine could run at 60 times a second with the screen refresh at whatever they can get from the hardware, but that'd defy convention.