predict how actual Xbox Next will differ from leaked specs

I don't own it, I'll ask tomorrow. Yet, I think you're wong on the MP3 protection.

And when have they changed the basic network model in the 12 years Microsoft has been into R&D on this? Yep.

Well, I could easily point to yesterdays CES presentation by Bill Gates and the 3-4 problems they had with networking (Who is incharge of Microsoft anywa... ohh..) and getting the system to work when set-up by professionals. But that's a cop-out.

Problems with getting the extender and PC to identify and stay connected. Problems playing video over the extender, problems with the web-radio. I can ask him later about what model and more problems.

I disagree fundimentally with the premise. It doesn't have to operate on Windows and it doesn't need to center around using the PC as a hub for everything from the icons it displays to the MP3's it plays, et al. Saying it's "here, now" just goes to show how much of a failure it is in the consumer's eyes. Where's the hype, where's the demand? it just doesn't exist, nor does the added value to the typical consumer -- of which you are not.

I don't agree on the first one at all, the current [hub] + [dumb terminals] will not be carried over by Toshiba and Sony. And I think history and common sense will show that CE vendors are just a bit ahead of Microsoft when it comes to ease-of-use. Again, I recommend that article on the comming synergy in the livingroom as it backs-up my case.

:? As I stated, Sony is in the hardware buisness. They sell PCs, they run Windows, they support many versions -- No surprise here. Your comment was a useless attempt at a "look, even they support it." Sony, obviously, isn't in the buisness of believing in the Microsoft Media Center paradigm; as I asked and you avoided, where are the Sony HDTVs or Blu-Ray or Audio-systems that are compatable?

Which doesn't answer which a consumer should buy. If they're all the same, why are they priced differently? What can one do that the others can't? As I said, they're still too PC-centric in their modeling.

It's no joke. I'm not that computer inclined and it's a pain-in-the-ass. Which is likely why the vast majority of people who take the wireless plung at connectivity have no concept of even WEP. It's easy for us to forget, but for most people who aren't OCD about this stuff, they have no idea how to get this to even work without some flunky from Comcast or TimeWarner doing it for them.

 

I don't think Dave is saying it needs to operate on a PC or Windows. The server could be a PC or set top box both of which run software. On a PC the software is usually Windows, but it doesn't have to be. Your point that there's no need for a hub is valid, yet personal preference. I believe more than one approach will succeed.

Slightly off topic... I don't think Microsoft really cares about the PC. It just happens to be the platform they control at the moment. They'd love for their software to be running on everything, including cable boxes. Until a recent software update my Scientific Atlanta cable box crashed as/more often than my PC.

 

Well there's a big fricking surprise.

Who would've guessed you to argue vehemently against some random opinion of Dave's? Not me anyway!

 

Why would you change the basic network model? The protocols (ip, udp, tcp, ftp, http, plus smb, rdp, etc) are well established and do the job. Why would you really need to change everything and break interoperability with everything else out there?

That basic network model that you're complaining about pretty much runs the entire internet and for that matter, most of the underlying telecommunications backbones today are packet switched and run some form of ip.

I think they've pretty much proven their worth, why trash a good thing?

 

Yet we used the the basic network model (OSI Model). It is far from efficient. Take basic TCP for example and compare that with what is being done with fast TCP. Anyhow the MCE model (I think Microsoft Calls it Windows Media Connect) is a flawed proposition. They want to condition the basic home consumer that the network revolves around the PC. Which involves a more active participation with a web on electronic networking; controling this, compatible with that, upgrade this.

I don't think so.

Most people which excludes those of us with PC knowledge gives a F@#k about all that Techie stuff (Historically home entertainment has been a passive form-Watching TV). Those consumers have to be eased into the converge consumer electronic world and current CE manufactors know this.[/quote]

 

I think that a central server is still a very viable and efficient model. If every appliance in your house was controlled through voice recognition you would really have far to much redundant processing power if each one was responsible for its own processing. One processing unit, one interface. Sounds easy to me. Furthermore as far as man machine interfacing goes, IMHO Microsoft, Apple and others have done better job than CE manufactures. Use the skinning metaphor to allow a common UI among devices.

 

Fast TCP is still TCP. It still runs over the same infrastructure, and transmits the same packets. The big difference is that it's smarter about how it routes the packets.

http://netlab.caltech.edu/FAST/fastfaq.html#Q_What_is_FAST

So no, it's not changing the basic model of the network, just improving it.

So again, why do we need to start over from scratch?

The basic protocols of the internet, the basic model is sound. Throwing away something that works this well, seems like a colossally stupid idea to the engineer in me.

You're totally confusing the MCE "model" and MCE-Extenders.

The MCE "model" is that you have a home server of some kind, which has the ability to store, record, and playback digital media. You can either play it back directly on the server; or stream/sync/copy it over a network to another smart device (like another PC, tablet, PDA, or smartphone), or a dumb-terminal device (like a media center extender or smart-display).

The MCE "model" allows for multiple devices to store content (as many as you want actually), and they can access each other's content, because it's all just FILES (allowing for DRM, which has to exist because content providers demand it).

In this model, the MCE-Extender is just one way to project the server's MCE interface out to a dumb (IE "cheap") terminal device, where the majority of the smarts stay on the PC acting as the server.

BUT this approach does not preclude smarter devices that use the MCE as a media server in addition to providing their own UI and additional capabilities for recording and playback.

For example consider the following announced device from LG:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050105/56015_1.html

This device is a stand alone DVD recorder w/a hard drive -- which has the capability of recording and playing back on it's own -- but also has the capability to provide seamless 2-way connection with your media center -- it's a smart device that stands alone, but ALSO integrates into a media center powered environment.

Likewise, at CES, MS and TiVo announced Tivo2Go, which is an upgrade for TiVo units to allow a user to copy content from from the TiVo's hard disk to the Media Center, and then transfer it to a PDA, smartphone, other portable device -- this kind of interoperability is the key idea behind Microsoft's vision.

 

As I said in my original post ...

You might not like the idea of one person speaking and one person typing in response, but it works. I've done it, and it didn't bother me or the other person[edit](which is not to say I wouldn't have a preference for both on voice)[/edit]. We were able to pass messages with 100% effectiveness.

I was offerring a number of suggestions as to how people could effectively communicate using messenger on Xenon and PC, as you had said it was an idea which couldn't work in practice. Microsoft think it'd work, and given the number of workarounds you can come up with given only 30 seconds of thought, I'm inclined to agree with them.

 

There appear to be a great many possibilities for combining the functions of Xbox Live and Messenger. I was thinking of a scenario where you're playing on XBox Live, and someone wants to get you on Messenger. Xbox Live can let you know, and give you the option of reading a messgae from them or opening a dialogue there and then if you don't want to go to your PC.

 

"predict how X2 with differ from leaked specs" turned into a fan-boy argument over MCE

 

You do understand that only chipworks has mysteriously managed to get 45nm and everyone else who's done a cross section has gotten much larger critical dimensions, don't ya? And that marvelous chipworks report only came out after sony had egg on its face over its claims. Hmm...

I'm pretty sure that either TI or Intel would gladly put the performance of their fets up against Sony's. I'm not at all convinced that you even have a clue about semiconductors.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

 

I'm assuming 1 platter and 1 head. The floor is still above $40. To many mechanical components. Too many components period. I'm not convinced that the BOM without a platter and without a head is much less than $20.

Not much. there isn't really that much margin there even in retail. The drive prices that you quoted were close-out prices which are most likely at or below the manufacturers original cost point. i.e. if you went to samsung and wanted to buy 10 million single platter drives for $50 per, they wouldn't even let you in the door.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

 

But why does it need to be changed? That same model quite happily connects to a network that is chucking Terrabytes of data around at my work location, and can freely let multiple devices communicate at home – I don’t see that there is any need for fundamental alterations. USB2.0 has enough bandwidth to transfer uncompressed video, home wireless networks are more than enough for compressed streaming video, and there are no issues with that on the network model employed currently.

Shrug – a demonstration at a show is not indicative of problems everywhere Vince, generally speaking they are more prone to issues at shows since its outside of its normal operating environment, the equipment has been lugged around all over the place and they may have been running at higher temps.

Something thing has to be able to record the media and something has to serve the media – it make no difference if that something is one or more devices. But the more that CE devices start doing these things the more PC like they become – my TiVo unit already does these things, and a very similar manner to a PC doing them, and yet I end up with the frustration that I can’t get the files off in a fashion that I want.

Evidently MS, the IHV and the OEM’s are seeing worth video content devices has very much been the focus of many of these groups – what did Gates spend his time speaking about at CES? What did JHH talk about in the recent “Fireside Chat� Alternatively, if you see these capabilities as a failure now then there’s no guarantee they won’t be a failure if delivered by someone else.

Again, who’s talking about a “hub and dumb terminals� I’m talking about something that can freely share files around multiple devices that I have in my house – I can’t do that at the moment thanks to TiVo’s, or any other CE vendors limitations, I could with an MCE system. I suspect that we’ll start to see more variety of systems as well already have the Xbox MCE extender, we’ll have to see what Xenon does, embedded devices running MCE are likely to appear, extenders are already available and other standard methods already in place in the home can be utilised. The fundamentals of how the system can be used is up to the end user and how they take advantage of it and the components they want to talk to each others – whether it be stand alone or a media networked environment. Again I don’t really see any differences with what you talk about from Sony / Toshiba – under both models a or multiple device(s) will record the content and a or multiple device(s) will serve the content.

As for CE vendors being “ahead of MS on ease-of-useâ€, its hardly the case since they don’t offer any devices with similar functionality ergo they are clearly behind. If we take the PVR element alone, as there are CE devices already, then there probably isn’t much difference.

The comment was in relation to them seeing the value in selling it since they do.

As for you other comment , how do I know since I’m not part Sony nor do I know how their business operates, all I can say is plainly they see value in the “paradigm†as they sell solutions based on it. And, why does an HDTV need to be compatible, since you’d be plugging the MCE system into it?

Buy the default options if you want, make no difference unless you want extra functionality. But, there are other vendors with other models for selling systems if that one baffles you too much.

Again, I don’t see MCE, as it is at the, moment as the panacea, if I did I’d probably already have one, and there are more basic factors that concern me (noise, hardware reliability) that I look at, but in reality these issues are very little different to the TiVo unit that I already have. But, personally, the “hte paradigm is fzit†mentality doesn’t really concern me since I don’t see that there are going to be vastly different “paradigms†from other vendors as they will basically be doing the same things; the paradigm I have at my home at the moment is broken since it I have electronic devices recording media electronically that logically should be able to talk to one another but can’t. If a device turns up and breaks that limitation and offers me at least the same functionality that I have at the moment then I’ll look at it, but the fundamental fact of the matter is that there is the capability to break those limitations is already available via MCE and for a computer literate household such as we have the fact that Windows is available creates a value added proposition.

 

TCP is a reliable data delivery protocol and nobody in their right mind would use TCP to do media delivery. The poor performance of TCP normally has not only to do with congestion but with link quality in general. If a packet is lost, it has to be resent (after the peers time out waiting for it). Problem with this is that the retransmision window is finite so resending a packet on a high speed high latency link is likely to stall the transmission.

For media delivery, if a packet is lost and has to be resent chances are that the resent packet will be received too late to do any good.

So use UDP with a block correction code (similar to CDs). Split the media stream to ensure higher chance of in-time delivery of important data. Eg. for MPEG transport, transmit B and P frames with more redundancy and I frames with lower redundancy (and you can even split individual I-frames into different quantization-layers).

And Vince, face it, IP is here to stay, lambasting Microsoft for not changing that is just silly.

Cheers
Gubbi

 

I wish another hardware vendor would pick up TiVo in Europe...

 

I thought the way it works in the UK is that there is no TIVO per se, but Sky boxes and stuff have TIVO kind of functions integrated, being able to record programs, stop them in real time and resume them later... I guess it was the only way to sell such a thing to the Brits, who are sometimes very stubborn with new technologies.

 

Thompson used to sell stand alone units (which is what I have) and TiVo the listing subsciption service. The TiVo deal with Sky is only for the Sky+ service and is not as flexible as the normal TiVo service, I'm not away of any Sky+ unit that have network capabilities either.

 

Oh i know, that's why i said "it has some TiVo functions".
Personally i have not seen anyone with TiVo or have ever heard extensively about it either, here in the UK. In fact i'm not too comfortable with the subject at all cause no one knows anything about it here.
Kinda like HDTV i guess.

 

I've heard rumours that (eventually) NTL is going to release their own Sky+alike service.

I don't hold high hopes for this at the moment, though seeing as how the STB software is pretty bloody awful at the moment. I have to physically unplug mine once a week or so to reset it when the 'programme guide' crashes. If they can't manage to sort this out when it's relatively simple, I don't have high hopes for any hard disk recording device from them.

I've also heard that NTL intend to start Video on Demand before anyone else. Let's just say I'm not holding my breath for this either as I've not seen any indication that they have the technical competence to provide such a service.

 

I hope they have TiVo or someone similarly competent writing the software.

Sounds like you have the same STB as I do!