Holy Wall of Text: My impressions post Playstation 4 (PS4) unveil
- Thread starter Acert93
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Some of my thoughts:
- Power: We are rapidly approaching the point where economics, not technology, is the main limit on what can be put in a video game. We were already getting close this gen---witness the number of games that were effectively 6-hour corridor-crawls. I remember playing COD4, walking through a burning house, and realizing that it probably took about as many resources to create a piece of scenery that took me 10 seconds to consume as it did to create an entire Doom level. Current human civilization is not going to produce video games with billion-dollar budgets.
This suggests we are likely hitting an inflection point where utilizing additional resources available is going to be primarily about better algorithms (e.g. lighting, physics, procedural content, etc) than consuming even more man-hours producing textures and meshes. Note, for example, how the city in the KZ4 flyover involves a lot of repeated textures and models. The artists probably could fit a lot more unique building models in 8 GB of RAM, but is it worth the time & money for a ten-second cutscene? Not really.
- The CPU: Yes, not being able to buy titles like Journey or COD4 off PSN for your PS4 is disappointing. But digital distribution is growing rapidly, and it was either switch to x86 now, or keep the Cell limping along for another generation and make the switch in 2020 , when it will be far more painful due to losing far more DD content.
I think the relevance is not so much gamers replaying content they bought eight years ago as it is that being able to sell quality, time-tested older content is good business, as both GoG and the Wii Virtual Console showed. No BC wasn't a big deal in the age of physical media, when continuing to publish and display a nine-year-old game simply wasn't worth it, and anyone who cared enough to track down old cartridges and discs already cared enough to own legacy systems.
If a generation no longer means a clean break with past content, DD titles can be sold perennially. People can easily check out those old classics others rave about, check out older games in an estabished series, or buy inexpensive games when the current crop of $60+ titles isn't worth it to them.
I would almost bet money that the fraction of gamers who (a) understand what "500 MHz FSB" means, (b) buy gaming machines based on primarily on such specs rather than available games, yet (c) don't choose PCs as their primary platform is less than 2% of the total consumer base. Such people may seem numerous on B3D and in the comments of LensOfTruth, but the effect of hardware power on sales is tiny, as evidenced by the sales of every console generation ever.
Firstly, Josh, I hope you type at 300wpm and have a keyboard sponsor! 
My take is a bit different. Nothing, from a raw spec perspective, is impressive from either console. A decent PC in Nov will blow away each console. I can just upgrade my GPU and be "ahead" if I want traditional gaming experience.
Both consoles being so PC-centric this time means that PC ports will be good. With everything shifting to multiplatform and the HW being so similar, I expect even more PC ports going forward.
So with that in mind, I'm more and more looking for something different than better graphics and higher resolution. I want to see enhancements in gameplay that I haven't seen before. I want those implemented well. Don't try to force a Kinect/PS Eye into a genre where it can't perform well. I don't want that. Find a way to show me something that I can't get anywhere else (I don't mean another Killzone or Halo either). Then I'll be interested.
My take is a bit different. Nothing, from a raw spec perspective, is impressive from either console. A decent PC in Nov will blow away each console. I can just upgrade my GPU and be "ahead" if I want traditional gaming experience.
Both consoles being so PC-centric this time means that PC ports will be good. With everything shifting to multiplatform and the HW being so similar, I expect even more PC ports going forward.
So with that in mind, I'm more and more looking for something different than better graphics and higher resolution. I want to see enhancements in gameplay that I haven't seen before. I want those implemented well. Don't try to force a Kinect/PS Eye into a genre where it can't perform well. I don't want that. Find a way to show me something that I can't get anywhere else (I don't mean another Killzone or Halo either). Then I'll be interested.
For some consumers, PCs will always be the preferred choice, especially now that Steam has made PC gaming more console-like.
Firstly, Josh, I hope you type at 300wpm and have a keyboard sponsor!
My take is a bit different. Nothing, from a raw spec perspective, is impressive from either console. A decent PC in Nov will blow away each console. I can just upgrade my GPU and be "ahead" if I want traditional gaming experience.
Both consoles being so PC-centric this time means that PC ports will be good. With everything shifting to multiplatform and the HW being so similar, I expect even more PC ports going forward.
So with that in mind, I'm more and more looking for something different than better graphics and higher resolution. I want to see enhancements in gameplay that I haven't seen before. I want those implemented well. Don't try to force a Kinect/PS Eye into a genre where it can't perform well. I don't want that. Find a way to show me something that I can't get anywhere else (I don't mean another Killzone or Halo either). Then I'll be interested.
There will be few if any games in the launch window that will satisfy your criteria, I suspect. I fully expect the 2nd wave of games to be a big step forward from prior gen games, though.
The new Killzone doesn't look like a PS3 game. It looks like a PC up-port of a PS3 game. If you think about the circumstances it has been created under this makes perfect sense and I think it's telling that it's not being called Killzone 4. I expect that there will be a Killzone 4 eventually running on a completely new engine (development of which is probably happening concurrently with the upcoming game).
Is it a CPU for the entire OS or was it just to assist with background downloading? i remember it as specifically for background downloading (i.e. some low power chip managing the background i/o and communications) rather than the whole OS running on it?
I don't expect big differences and the use of a very distinct technology either in multiplatform titles --except maybe for the Wii U.Problem of course is that for multi-platform titles at least, the weaker system generally sets the bar.
Even so, unlike the PS3-X360 generation were consoles' power differences was a stone's throw away if the dissimilarities this gen are more pronounced, then developers are going to either increase the framerate or the resolution in next gen consoles, and taking into account that they are going to have a lot of more options -numbers wise- to choose a resolution, I expect that to happen quite often.
We don't have any definitive details on it other than it being used for background downloading, as you already indicated. Anything more is pure speculation.
Correct, my bulletpoint should simple by additional processing units for background tasks. How much these unit(s) contribute is an unknown but, indications are, at least helpful in offloading some tasks so they can run seamlessly in the background (i.e. guaranteed features).
Firstly, Josh, I hope you type at 300wpm and have a keyboard sponsor!
120WPM
And unlike some I don't have any sponsors My take isn't too different, but I have a real life scenario that has me on the fence and likely jump for the 3rd generation in a row. I think this scenario is a "minor" one in that it is NOT reflective of the general market but it matters to me.
* I like racing gaming. I actually bought a PS1 to get GT1 and then GT2. I am quite fond of FM3 and FM4. For me this is a great genre as we don't do a lot of video games and don't allow our children to play violent ones. Racing games are fun; the difficulty scales (both in assists as well in car difficulty / track) so a broad range of gamers can play TOGETHER, car variety is cool, and modding (both pain jobs and tuning) provides depth. Racing games for me scratch the itch of "core gamer" but can be tweaked so my friends and boys can play and have fun.
* I had hopes of eventually getting 3-4 Xbox 360's and setting up a LAN w/ wheels for Forza as this generation died out. PROBLEMS! Turn10 has been MS's lacky and killed LAN in 3 and 4 and took the online in directions that cater to MS's walled XBL garden instead of feeding gamers features they want (they, incorrectly, assumed MS's walled garden and Halo hoppers was better than what gamers wanted. They were wrong and in 4 conceded back some features but failed to return LAN and failed to evolve online--Dirt Showdown is deeper IMO, which is a pathetic commentary). The worst part is two fold, but it all is about the MS XBL walled garden. The first part is pay for online. It doesn't matter I have bought new 6 copies of Forza this generation, still gotta pay to play online (until they yank their servers and force everyone to buy their new version; hence my longing for LAN). The flip side of this coin is the MS walled garden means my boys, even though they have their own GT and even own copy of the game, are limited in game access. Yeah, smart move MS, you mean you have to have a Gold account to download skins and buy tune jobs? Another problem? MS's walled garden of peripherals. MS's discontinued their FF Wheel and has pretty much prevented anyone else from offering them. And 360's have failed to jump down in price (except old models which have RROD concerns) due to MS's model of adding pack ins like Kinect (not very good for games I am interested in--but we have one and the kids like it, but not helpful for my Forza situation) and keeping the price stable. Oddly I bought 2 copies of FM4 brand new and have 3 copies (all bought new) of FM3. So to highlight:
- Pay for online
- Pay for game features
- Stripped local MP features
- Walled garden peripherals
MS really has pushed the service & connectivity angles as a business and it hurts my personal experience with the platform. I don't care if it works for others (awesome!) and I think I fall more into a corner case, but then again I don't care why you or someone else likes something--more power to you
On level I think the Xbox 360 matched or exceeded my overall gaming desires this gen but it has begun to fizzle (note: not that the PS3 fills that void) so I am evaluating which horse to jump to. To early to call but Sony at least has me interested. I *really* have been discouraged by comments by some that MS is not continuing "focus on the core, bring in the casual" and not because of the impact on pixels.* So I look at how Sony ran the PS3. USB and Bluetooth and supported PC peripherals like flight sticks and FF wheels. Free online play. GT is great (if it ever gets released) and their titles like LBP2, ModNation Racers, R&C, Infamous, etc interest me (although I think their shooters like KZ and Resistance suck) and I can see their response with the PS4 design addresses my biggest concern with them (are they all in for core gamers and are they all in on giving developers what they want).
* So the question really falls into (a) what will Sony do in terms of paid online play/features and (b) what will MS do, and (c) how does that align with my gaming habits?
Last gen having Monitor support was important to me (no TV), quality online play, and KB/MS. This gen I anticipate buying fewer games but more of an eye toward (a) stuff I can play with my kids and (b) local MP both on a single console OR LAN.
If Sony has free online play, GT has LAN (and gets released), Sony continues to support 3rd party peripherals like FF Wheels, and the console is appropriately priced I will be very interested.
In fact if the hardware was flopped I would still be interested. If the PS4 had 12 CUs and Durango had 18 CUs but the PS4 had free online and supported 3rd party wheels and MS was going to go the same path of paid online (and all it entails, e.g. discourages LAN) and MS was the only game in town for FF wheels, etc.
I would choose:
GT Orbis @ 1280x1080
over
Forza Durango @ 1920x1080
The pixels really aren't that important to me.
So I would agree with you--it really is about what you want out of the experience and how the platform meets that. There are a lot of other factors (e.g. which platform has the best exclusives; which platform has the best/stable 3rd party games; price; killer apps) but it sounds like DURANGO and ORBIS are close enough I don't care unless it really jumps out on screen. And if I really, really cared about pixels above EVERYTHING else I would go back to the PC.
At least then I wouldn't need to hack my KB/MS support back in like I do now
http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-ps4-in-deep-first-specs/#comment-5026
Orbis is not like previous AMD APUs: it is using a new CPU (Jaguar), is using 2 CPU modules (4 cores each, 8 total), and is using AMD's newest architecture (GCN) and a performance class (basically Pitcairn--way far and above HIGHER than any APU before) and is using GDDR5 instead of DDR3 or DDR2 (or variant like LPDDR2).
I believe there are enough new variables at play to support the rumor as a likely theory until proven otherside--especially seeing as VGLeaks had almost everything else right (i.e. legit data). It also makes sense to me; the CPU cores will be more latency sensitive and big: what is more important for peak performance? The Jaguar cores being the prime client or the GPU cores? I think games would run much poorer if the CPU was second fiddle.
I could be wrong but there is good reason to believe latencies WILL be an issue on Orbis.
Sony's been a lot less weird and consumer-hostile since Kutargi stepped down. They're not perfect, but they've made a lot of strides in the right direction in the last few years.
wonder how the latencies will compare to ps360 which were around 500 cycles. Seeing the CPU is clock half as fast it would have to be twice as bad just to equal those. Wonder how big a difference between gddr3 vs gddr5.
Would be a good thread. Wonder if there were major problems with latencies for ps360. I tried searching but found nothing.
(((interference)))
Veteran
Well that's an impressive wall of text
Is there a TLDR version?
EDIT:
Ok finally read it, yes the ESRAM's low latency will help but it doesn't seem like Durango is designed for fancy techniques like Tile Based Deferred Rendering (as bg has just said).
Also Orbis will have a significant memory (2-2.5GB) advantage since Durango is reserving 3GB for non-game stuff. 2 CPU cores are also reserved, vs 1 or less in Orbis.
The other thing is that MS have a thick API this time whereas PS4 will use libGCM.
I would like to see the better core gamer machine win next gen though (so far that's the PS4), if only because it'll have implications for future consoles, but I definitely think MS will have a competitive machine with broad appeal, i'm very interested to see whether there's an exodus of the core gamers to PS4 (as GAF sentiment suggests) or whether they'll just kick up a fuss but buy it in droves anyway.
Is there a TLDR version?
EDIT:
Ok finally read it, yes the ESRAM's low latency will help but it doesn't seem like Durango is designed for fancy techniques like Tile Based Deferred Rendering (as bg has just said).
Also Orbis will have a significant memory (2-2.5GB) advantage since Durango is reserving 3GB for non-game stuff. 2 CPU cores are also reserved, vs 1 or less in Orbis.
The other thing is that MS have a thick API this time whereas PS4 will use libGCM.
I would like to see the better core gamer machine win next gen though (so far that's the PS4), if only because it'll have implications for future consoles, but I definitely think MS will have a competitive machine with broad appeal, i'm very interested to see whether there's an exodus of the core gamers to PS4 (as GAF sentiment suggests) or whether they'll just kick up a fuss but buy it in droves anyway.
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I think the thing I'm most interested in seeing at this point is how all the "extra" power (if you will) afforded by the PS4 translates to on screen differences. At a 2x best case advantage, my guess is that people will end up being surprised how close the resultant visuals end up being but I could be wrong.
Obviously there will be showcase exclusive titles for each, for which you'll have to own both to play. But in the final analysis of apples-to-apples multiplatform titles, just knowing LCD targets and the available performance nips and tucks; they will likely provide as similar of an experience as they do today which the number crunchers probably wouldn't expect. We'll just have to wait an see, but I'm excited by it all none the less.
I really like the design Sony has chosen with the PS4. And though I wish all the console makers had targeted bigger thermal envelopes, within their given budget, they should have a very capable machine.
Obviously there will be showcase exclusive titles for each, for which you'll have to own both to play. But in the final analysis of apples-to-apples multiplatform titles, just knowing LCD targets and the available performance nips and tucks; they will likely provide as similar of an experience as they do today which the number crunchers probably wouldn't expect. We'll just have to wait an see, but I'm excited by it all none the less.
I really like the design Sony has chosen with the PS4. And though I wish all the console makers had targeted bigger thermal envelopes, within their given budget, they should have a very capable machine.
Are we assuming Sony will use 0 GB for OS now? If Microsoft is reserving 2-2.5 for OS, I expect Sony to follow suit.
itsmydamnation
Veteran
why would you assume that? your talking about the amount of memory needed to run a full on win7 + apps.
If Sony goes with 512 mb, you can kiss concurrent apps good bye. Sony has never been too good on the software front of things, so I can imagine them side stepping having Facebook / Skype / Twitter notifications running in the back ground.
If I were a betting man, I would say the Vita is a pretty good idea of what Sony is thinking in terms of OS. The Vita OS feedback is probably being used to architect PS4 OS.
itsmydamnation
Veteran
how the hell does facebook + skype + twitter == 2.5-3gb.
you realise that 3gb is pretty much the *standard* amount of ram given for full blown enterprise windows 7 SOE's which include things like , LYNC, office/outlook, SAP, AV, etc.
*standard == standard in environment where your not limited by module size * channel width, eg, VDI, windows 7 on hyperV/ESX.
you realise that 3gb is pretty much the *standard* amount of ram given for full blown enterprise windows 7 SOE's which include things like , LYNC, office/outlook, SAP, AV, etc.
*standard == standard in environment where your not limited by module size * channel width, eg, VDI, windows 7 on hyperV/ESX.
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