Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[Cyan]

That's true of every console ever. If you don't have a PC to upgrade, the console offers better value. If you just need a GPU, PC is cheaper, and even with a little more outlay you get a more versatile platform.

Scorpio changes nothing. No PC gamer with an epic Steam Library is going to migrate to Scorpio. Scorpio will sell to console gamers.

Your assumption sounds correct to me. The winner move for Scorpio would be offering similar to the PC which is.., aside from power....,Xbox Live for free! :smile2: A competitive price and fine capabilities and you have a very good console in your hands --if it offers something different too that's a bonus.

Xbox Live for free is the next big step, imho. It would attract more peple and you could have paid subscriptions to Xbox Live for those wanting to keep the Games with Gold service.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I'm wondering if Scorpio will gradually start to hurt the pc gaming marketshare, like the powerful Xbox 360 and PS3 did around their launch?
In my opinion Sony kinda got it wrong, by not offering 60fps in alot of games, but Scorpio is different judging from the specs and assuming the cpu is better . If Scorpio launches for $399 might we see alot of people adopt or even migrate away from pc instead of upgrading their computers with new 300-400 video cards instead of going into PC gaming? Probably the biggest pillar of PC gaming is people want better performance.

By the time Scorpio launches you can probably get an equivalent videocard for $280-300, but for people without preexisting pcs, they'd need a cpu,motherboard,hdd, psu etc, the price starts to add up.

As already said, Scorpio will change nothing regarding PC gaming, and especially nothing because Scorpio won't be nearly as comparable to high-end 2017 PCs as Xbox 360 was in 2005. or even PS3 in 2006.

At launch, Xbox 360 surpassed almost any high-end PC rig, and only the most extreme high-end PC configurations of late 2005 could match Xbox 360's overall gaming experience.

However, the same could not be said about PS3 in late 2006, even factoring in the advantages PS3 had in some areas, the combination of PS3 weaknesses (less capable GPU) it's 1-year later release, and the launch of the much more powerful, more modern Nvidia G80 (8800 GTX), prevented PS3 from repeating what the 360 did a year earlier.

In 2017, Scorpio will not be the equivalent of 360 in 2005 or even PS3 in 2006, vs a high-end gaming PC.

 

[dobwal]

What's the accepted logic here in the forum regarding node use? Isn't apple planning on going 10nm for its next iPhone? Both Samsung and TSMC have announced the start of mass production of 10nm in Q4 2016, which puts them on target to start volume production by mid summer for products due to launch in the second half of 2017.

Is Scorpio's SOC at 10nm a possibility?

 

[dobwal]

Consoles disrupting PC gaming? Outside of the fact that a whole slew of PC devs turned to consoles as their central focus in the 2000s, when has consoles ever disrupted PC gaming by siphoning off gamers due to strong hardware?

Any console performance advantage at release is short lived and it's the high end PC gamers who understand that the most.

 

[Rikimaru]

Is Scorpio's SOC at 10nm a possibility?

No.
It's not viable for big chips yet + all fab capacity will got to Apple.

 

[Rangers]

Yeah well, Vega 10 is allegedly 12.5 Teraflops (And Titan X is already around there) where Scorpio is slated for 6TF. Nuff said. PC's are already way ahead.

But then again 2X isn't enough for a so called generation gap, so it's a matter of degree. It does seem to me that the PC flops race has calmed down, with Vega being only ~1.5X the flops of a Fury X.

 

[Metal_Spirit]

Yeah well, Vega 10 is allegedly 12.5 Teraflops (And Titan X is already around there) where Scorpio is slated for 6TF.

Vega 5 then?

 

[function]

Loudness and system load are 2 separate metrics. Correlation only occurs because of how the cooling system was designed for the system load.

XBO and PS4 have the same system load and XBO is much quieter.

160W shouldn't be difficult to keep cool and relatively quiet. The Falcon 360s were reasonably cool and quiet even with simplified CPU heatsinks - basically just a lump of exotically finned aluminium - over the original models [RRoD continued due to other factors, of course].

That's assuming you're not generating 120W of heat in a few tens of mm^2 of silicon, and using cheap thermal paste between chip and heatspreader (Intel, noooooo, what are you even doing?!?!?!? Solder that damn heatspreader on!).

 

[iroboto]

re: Lisa Su's words
I think the next time a discussion runs down the rabbit hole over what was said, it's important to go through the actual source material from beginning to end and listen to the audio and the entire context.

Very important parts were stripped from the context surrounding the text from Lisa Su which imo should not have been (if you are really intent on breaking down the language).

That being said, here is the audio link that I pulled from GAF. I so happened to wake up deciding that it would be simply easier to listen to the source material and someone there was thinking the same thing.
https://cc.talkpoint.com/cred001/112816a_as/?entity=54_FBH3EQX

Hmm, to avoid 50 pages of bolding, and english commentary, I will say, with my recent meetings with some friends from redmond and listening to this audio from beginning to end my final stance is.. keep your expectations in check. There are a great deal of tidbits of information here and there if you listen to the whole broadcast; probably pretty important to listen to questions the interviewer actually asks . Honestly, just listen to it all and analyze the 'everything' that was said.. before you reply with block quotes please for the love of B3D. I think the answer is there, it's certainly reading between the lines.

 

[function]

.. keep your expectations in check.

So you mean it's only getting Zen Lite?

...

 

[iroboto]

160W shouldn't be difficult to keep cool and relatively quiet. The Falcon 360s were reasonably cool and quiet even with simplified CPU heatsinks - basically just a lump of exotically finned aluminium - over the original models [RRoD continued due to other factors, of course].

That's assuming you're not generating 120W of heat in a few tens of mm^2 of silicon, and using cheap thermal paste between chip and heatspreader (Intel, noooooo, what are you even doing?!?!?!? Solder that damn heatspreader on!).

hehe, I was just going with the concept that you could overcool a solution to ensure that regardless of load the noise doesn't increase Hence not correlated

So you mean it's only getting Zen Lite?

...

lol !

 

[Rikimaru]

160W shouldn't be difficult to keep cool and relatively quiet. The Falcon 360s were reasonably cool and quiet even with simplified CPU heatsinks - basically just a lump of exotically finned aluminium - over the original models [RRoD continued due to other factors, of course].

That's assuming you're not generating 120W of heat in a few tens of mm^2 of silicon, and using cheap thermal paste between chip and heatspreader (Intel, noooooo, what are you even doing?!?!?!? Solder that damn heatspreader on!).

Falcon PSU was rated 175W, PS4 Pro - 310W.

 

[AlNom]

No.
It's not viable for big chips yet + all fab capacity will got to Apple.

That plus Apple can afford it when they're selling devices that are priced a wee bit higher than consoles themselves.

 

[function]

Falcon PSU was rated 175W, PS4 Pro - 310W.

Actual power draw for these devices is always lower than the maximum rated supply on the PSU. Sony seem to provide more overhead iirc

Here's a breakdown on the Xboxes from Anand, showing only ~122W for Falcon in this test, and ~177 for the OG device, so I may well have been over-egging it for 160W comparing to Falcon. Results do seem to vary significantly though (based on unit and meter) as I've definitely seen some OG 360 results topping an amazing 200W at the wall.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3774/welcome-to-valhalla-inside-the-new-250gb-xbox-360-slim/3

 

[rokkerkory]

6TF looks like they took Vega 10 and halved it, which means that it could draw around 150W or less (< 300 is a very abstract number)

If half then still some chance slightly more power than 6TF

 

[Cyan]

re: Lisa Su's words
I think the next time a discussion runs down the rabbit hole over what was said, it's important to go through the actual source material from beginning to end and listen to the audio and the entire context.

Very important parts were stripped from the context surrounding the text from Lisa Su which imo should not have been (if you are really intent on breaking down the language).

That being said, here is the audio link that I pulled from GAF. I so happened to wake up deciding that it would be simply easier to listen to the source material and someone there was thinking the same thing.
https://cc.talkpoint.com/cred001/112816a_as/?entity=54_FBH3EQX

Hmm, to avoid 50 pages of bolding, and english commentary, I will say, with my recent meetings with some friends from redmond and listening to this audio from beginning to end my final stance is.. keep your expectations in check. There are a great deal of tidbits of information here and there if you listen to the whole broadcast; probably pretty important to listen to questions the interviewer actually asks . Honestly, just listen to it all and analyze the 'everything' that was said.. before you reply with block quotes please for the love of B3D. I think the answer is there, it's certainly reading between the lines.

can you give us a hint? I listened to it but got lost into so many business practices mumbo jumbo.

If half then still some chance slightly more power than 6TF

if you think about it...6,25 Teraflops would be like adding a X360 on top of the Scorpio, the numbers are so high these days that PS4 Pro is almost like 20 X360, not even taking into account modern hardware optimisations.

Power wise the Scorpio is well-served. I still hope that Xbox Live becomes free for everyone except for those who want the added benefit of GwG.

Because they are publicising Play Anywhere very much, but it is unfair treatment for us console gamers when if you have a PC you can play online for free but if you have the Xbox One you must pay for XBL. There should be an option so you can choose to pay just to have free games in a monthly basis.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

HDMI 2.1 spec is out:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/hdmi-2-1-spec-8k-dynamic-hdr-earc/

Besides the obvious 8K60 and 4K120 with HDR modes, it also brings something they call "Game Mode Variable Refresh Rate (VRR)".
Looks like HDMI's version of VESA's Adaptive Sync, or even just an official adoption of AMD's own Freesync-over-HDMI.

I wonder if Scorpio will be a pioneer in adopting HDMI 2.1 and VRR, like they were with HDMI 2.0 on the Xbox One S.
It would be really big for Scorpio to show variable 40-60 FPS in titles where the PS4 Pro can only do fixed 30 FPS.

(BTW, the newer HDMI eARC will support more advanced audio than the 30 year-old Dolby Digital unlike the current ARC, yay).

can you give us a hint? I listened to it but got lost into so many business practices mumbo jumbo.

Basically, she says absolutely nothing that can point to Zen being or not being in Scorpio.
I don't know where that previous transcription came from, but I didn't hear anything about Zen only being available for semi-custom designs in 2018.
At least not within a fully constructed and well perceived sentence.

 

[Rangers]

Zen still seems like a REALLY REALLY REALLY long shot to me. Just for compatibility with Xbox One reasons alone.

However you could probably argue it's needed to push any iterative console to that "next level". PS4 Pro games still often struggle with framerates partly because it's running the same (weakling) CPU.

Doubt they can push Jag much past the Pro's 2.1 ghz, either.

 

[AlNom]

They should bring back the black/white buttons from OG Xbox.

...with announcements for OG Xbox remasters. :3

Normal usage for media sharing purposes (screenshot & record video or whatever) or just remap the buttons & bumpers accordingly.

 

[Cyan]

HDMI 2.1 spec is out:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/hdmi-2-1-spec-8k-dynamic-hdr-earc/

Besides the obvious 8K60 and 4K120 with HDR modes, it also brings something they call "Game Mode Variable Refresh Rate (VRR)".
Looks like HDMI's version of VESA's Adaptive Sync, or even just an official adoption of AMD's own Freesync-over-HDMI.

I wonder if Scorpio will be a pioneer in adopting HDMI 2.1 and VRR, like they were with HDMI 2.0 on the Xbox One S.
It would be really big for Scorpio to show variable 40-60 FPS in titles where the PS4 Pro can only do fixed 30 FPS.

(BTW, the newer HDMI eARC will support more advanced audio than the 30 year-old Dolby Digital unlike the current ARC, yay).




Basically, she says absolutely nothing that can point to Zen being or not being in Scorpio.
I don't know where that previous transcription came from, but I didn't hear anything about Zen only being available for semi-custom designs in 2018.
At least not within a fully constructed and well perceived sentence.

this site confirmed that Scorpio is going to arrive with HDMI 2.1

https://translate.google.com/transl...nciado-la-project-scorpio-llegara/&edit-text=