Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by mpg1, May 25, 2016.

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  1. Rikimaru

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    #1861 Rikimaru, Jan 5, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  2. ToTTenTranz

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    Probably none. If they kept the connector then it's probably working at a much higher frequency. HDMI 2.0b tops at 600MHz and AFAIK very few devices reach that frequency (most HDR-equipped TVs top at 450MHz and so does the PS4 Pro atm). Increasing bandwidth from 18 to 48Gbps probably means it's working at over 2GHz now. The large difference in signal frequency will definitely require brand new controllers.


    Together with eARC, I think VRR is the most exciting feature coming with HDMI 2.1. The rest is way off into a far distance to be really usable during the next 4 years or so.
    However, VRR is probably just the HDMI Forum making an official implementation of AMD's Freesync-over-HDMI.
    That said, HDMI 2.1 TVs will most probably support Freesync-over-HDMI, and since AMD is the one doing the SoC they could simply implement it with the old connection.


    Maybe not, though those could simply be custom changes to the GPU, enforced by Microsoft.
     
  3. rokkerkory

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  4. iroboto

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    We're all well aware of this presentation, and we also know that 4Pro and PS4 slides are shown before the Xbox Ones are.

    Not questioning that, questioning why that slide is being held in that position at their booth beside their Ryzen & Vega machine (as a method of poking fun of things - because forums can have some fun!). Unless the picture was purposefully snapped at this position with the presentation running in the background (this should be easy to prove or disprove -- once again, having some fun)
     
  5. iroboto

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    Good point
     
  6. Jubei

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    I think hitting that 399$ sweet spot is far more important than Zen.
     
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  7. iroboto

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    Probably the strongest reason it won't be there.
    Zen probably still unnecessary for games imo.

    But that picture, I'm more interested in the association with Vega.
     
  8. turkey

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    Scorpio may have its own 8 year lifecycle and Pro 4 years depending how Microsoft see generations from here on out.

    Although I would assume it still needs to be sold at worst break even.
     
  9. Cyan

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    RootKit and BRiT like this.
  10. iroboto

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    Same picture unfortunately. If it was a different picture that would be helpful.
     
  11. powdercore

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    I just don't see how MS could steal Sony's thunder in 2016 with Scorpio in 2016. The two specs would be very similar. MS needs to create something more powerful to buy back the mindset even if they give up 12 months to PS4 Pro if they could get the next 24 months for themselves. They have a lot more to gain by releasing in Holiday 2017. Of course I am assuming PS5 won't be released until Holiday 2019.
     
  12. powdercore

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    How do you feel about ARM-assisted Jaguar on the SoC? I still don't know how MS will be able to do 60 fps consistently even at 1080p if they don't upgrade the CPU with better IPC. Increasing the clock only increases heat.
     
  13. turkey

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    Increasing the clock increases the work achieved in a given time frame, it increases both single core and multi threaded performance.

    If adding CPU cores why not then just add more Jaguar cores?

    if you mix the type then you would have issues with code being scheduled across available resources , that code would also not be usable on the Xbox One or PC or PS4.
     
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  14. Michellstar

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    As much as i'd like vega and zen inside Scorpio, the placement there could just mean that they are AMD products for 2017. That's what CES is about.

    Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 4 mediante Tapatalk
     
  15. ToTTenTranz

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    RyZen, Vega and Scorpio.

    3 products intertwined.

    Half Life 3 confirmed as Scorpio launch title.
     
  16. iroboto

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    anything would be okay with me, RyZen in Scorpio signals to me Continuum in Xbox. Meaning the play is to make both Apps and Games. Apps being the main consumer of a strong CPU. Such a concept might work, not hard to imagine a M/KB and monitor Scorpio with productivity tools (office 365 and proper browsing experience) and powerful games as being a bad thing. I would expect such a device to be successful in the post high school markets where space is tight in dorms and most people for some reason are willing to pay for MacBooks to do word processing.

    If it is to stay a purely game device then even though IPC is low, the majority of CPU load is actually within the render() block. I've asked and it's been confirmed, it's the killer. Complex scenes tend to have more and more stuff and the CPU is looping through the best they can to figure out what should be drawn or not.

    Fast forward to DX12 and equivalent and there are API calls to specifically move certain draw call setups to be triggered and run off the GPU. Known as ExecuteIndirect on DX12. as I understand it, it's not where they want it to be, yet, but it's definitely moving in that direction. XBO has also customized their GPU command processors to work specifically with ExecuteIndirect which provides additional performance boosts when using it. About the only secret sauce that XBO has. And I imagine we will see those customizations carry over to Scorpio.

    So I see a future where this will be in place soon. We started off this generation with developers moving towards changing their engines to compute shader based. After that there was more on Async compute. Now it looks like they have worked so hard on the graphics sides of thing that the CPU is bottlenecked; so it only makes sense to bring in these features and shift the bottleneck back to the GPU.

    It's only been 3 years right? We're starting year 4 now. ExecuteIndirect should become a factor soon for the next wave of games that need to free up more CPU.
     
  17. Jubei

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    Even if Scorpio has an 8 year lifecycle that doesnt necessarily mean it needs Zen. After 4 years it will just be the low end option at 249$

    The only way Zen makes sense is if its a new generation with exclusive games. Otherwise all that power is wasted because of Xbox One limitations. If a game is designed to be 30 fps on XB1, Zen wont make it 60 fps due to compatibility, it will just hold steady 30 fps. I think overclocked cat cores would accomplish the same purpose for a fraction of the price
     
  18. turkey

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    Compatibility with ? Single player and Co-op can have players with different frame rates (and input methods) as already delivered with PC Co-Op in Gears Of War4.

    Zen seems to be a suite of technology with the new IPC being just a part of this, could we not see better prefetch and the SenseMI or similar optimizations baked into cat cores?
     
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  19. iroboto

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    They don't necessarily have to.
    We use 4Pro as a guideline but there's still 1 full year for MS to decide on their messaging.

    I think the term 'no one gets left behind', is fairly vague. It has no details around which console will become the lead platform, etc. Today the rule for Xbox is leave it up to the developers. There's no frame rate or resolution lock by MS, so why ask them now to lock step? (unless they really _want_ XBO to stick around).

    You know what I mean? First party titles on XBO are generally 1080p, but they have no reason to keep the resolution bar so high on Xbox One with another console coming through.

    I honestly don't know which way they will go with this one. Part of me feels like if this is mid-gen refresh, and it's only meant to upscale XBO games to 4K, then what you write is correct. The alternative is, you want to distance yourself from XBO, and relaunch -- then you make Scorpio the lead platform and XBO follows.
     
  20. Jubei

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    I think Phil Spencer has been fairly clear about Scorpio though.

    "With Scorpio you're introducing the idea of people playing online together and against each other in competitive multiplayer, one person perhaps on Scorpio and one on Xbox One. If the Scorpio enables such things as better framerate, won't that give the Scorpio user a competitive advantage in certain games?

    Phil Spencer: Obviously the game designers of our games have to think about framerate and field of view when they're designing competitive situations. We have this scenario with cross-play today, people playing games on PC and console at the same time.

    On a console to console experience, when we designed Scorpio and we said 4K console, we looked at games that are running at, let's say 1080p 60 on an Xbox One, and said we want that same game to be able to run at 4K 60 on a Scorpio. We looked at the design of the games we had on Xbox One today and said, if we increase the resolution and maintain the framerate we have, could we hit that?

    I think framerate's more interesting than resolution in terms of competitive gaming, and we wanted to make sure teams were able to build the 4K version of their game at the same framerate they can hit, at whatever resolution: 900 or 1K or even 720 that they're hitting on this box. So, we thought specifically about that situation and talked to developers about it."

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-15-xbox-boss-phil-spencer-the-big-interview

    So yeah while there is no mandate about resolution, you can make a 1080p Scorpio game for example, there does seem to be a mandate about keeping XB1 and Scorpio framerates similar

    Im not even sure a developer would want to put in the extra work to make a Scorpio game run at 60 fps compared to 30 fps considering Scorpios install base will be minimal
     
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