Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[ProspectorPete]

Well I know a lot of people who waited for the PS3 because they had PS2 and wanted to keep in the worlds most popular ecosystem that promised 'true HD' and backward compatibility than move to a failed console brand that didn't...there was also 'the cheapest ever bluray player' going for it. Hell the X360 was technically so far behind (in consumer eyes) it didn't even have HDMI.

Price was a much bigger factor I can assure you...then after the poor launch of PS3 (and sales picking up on X360) the other factors came into play...but I believe if Sony had released at a competitive price (and not gone down the exotic hardware route) then X360 wouldn't have sold half as well.

BTW, the EU launch was delayed quite late in the day (2/3 months from launch IIRC) so if you'd wait a year what's a few months.

FTR I always thought the price was a red herring, I worked in retail and people didn't understand that buying the core was a complete rip with their overpriced proprietary add-ons - with the PS3 offering pretty much 'everything compatible' and if you planned to use things like HDD, WiFi (both pretty essential last gen) the PS3 was actually quite a reasonable proposition...

Exactly! Xbox 360 was advertised as E299 for the core, let's say 399 for the 20GB model with a wireless controller and a plastic chrome coloured disc drive rim.

PS3 at 599 had wifi, 60GB, controller with built in battery, built in optical out, full (98% compatibily) BC, lossless audio, blu ray drive, HDMI, card reader, free online. (I leave out things like a sacd player or later 3d BD capability)

But websites and blogs were all reporting PS3 was overpriced. I remember when asked about the high price that the PS3 boss said: "It will be so good, that people will work extra to buy it"
Which was widely reported as "get a second job if you want a PS3" < omg teh arrogantz $ony!!. People went with the much more reasonable priced (in their opinion) Xbox, while in reality, like you said: it was a complete ripoff.

I still believe if they launched on the same day, it would have worked out differently. MS really had the media in their pockets, also sponsored events like Penny Arcade Expo led to things like:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2006/08/5123/

We've already talked about it, there's no chance we're buying a PS3 at launch. That's Grade-A bullshit.

That was months before PS3 launched, it's just 1 example but the sum of it must have had an effect IMO.

 

[chris1515]

Exactly! Xbox 360 was advertised as E299 for the core, let's say 399 for the 20GB model with a wireless controller and a plastic chrome coloured disc drive rim.

PS3 at 599 had wifi, 60GB, controller with built in battery, built in optical out, full (98% compatibily) BC, lossless audio, blu ray drive, HDMI, card reader, free online. (I leave out things like a sacd player or later 3d BD capability)

But websites and blogs were all reporting PS3 was overpriced. I remember when asked about the high price that the PS3 boss said: "It will be so good, that people will work extra to buy it"
Which was widely reported as "get a second job if you want a PS3" < omg teh arrogantz $ony!!. People went with the much more reasonable priced (in their opinion) Xbox, while in reality, like you said: it was a complete ripoff.

I still believe if they launched on the same day, it would have worked out differently. MS really had the media in their pockets, also sponsored events like Penny Arcade Expo led to things like:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2006/08/5123/



That was months before PS3 launched, it's just 1 example but the sum of it must have had an effect IMO.

Whatever was inside the PS3, it was overpriced. 599 euros is just a stupid idea... And they were losing nearly 200 dollars per machine at the beginning... The worst console of Sony...

 

[ProspectorPete]

Whatever was inside the PS3, it was overpriced. 599 euros is just a stupid idea... And they were losing nearly 200 dollars per machine at the beginning... The worst console of Sony...

Case in point

A 499 euro wifi equipped Xbox 360 20GB model is a much, much better value proposition. Who needs 60GB or a user upgradable hdd? Free online was also bullshit. And controllers with built-in batteries? I'd rather buy AA batteries, no thanks Sony.

The biggest offender IMO, is the BD drive. HD-DVD has MS behind it and it will obviously be the winner.
Also MS said that the successor to Xbox 360 will have no disc drive at all.

CVG has an interview with Microsoft Xbox and Entertainment's Stephen McGill, who has made it clear that digital media is the future, and not Blu-ray discs.

Says McGill: "We have no plans to adopt [a] Blu-Ray drive for the Xbox 360. In fact, the future of home entertainment started last autumn when Xbox 360 became the first and only console to offer instant-on 1080p streaming HD movies."

So good luck with PS3's paperweight blu-ray drive, blu-ray is going nowhere.

 

[chris1515]

Case in point

A 499 euro wifi equipped Xbox 360 20GB model is a much, much better value proposition. Who needs 60GB or a user upgradable hdd? Free online was also bullshit. And controllers with built-in batteries? I'd rather buy AA batteries, no thanks Sony.

The biggest offender IMO, is the BD drive. HD-DVD has MS behind it and it will obviously be the winner.
Also MS said that the successor to Xbox 360 will have no disc drive at all.



So good luck with PS3's paperweight blu-ray drive, blu-ray is going nowhere.

The 599 euros/dollars pricepoint was just hurtful for them and believe me if Sony could go back to the past they would do things very differently and funny they are now playing against UHD-BD...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

PS3 at 599 had wifi, 60GB, controller with built in battery, built in optical out, full (98% compatibily) BC, lossless audio, blu ray drive, HDMI, card reader, free online. (I leave out things like a sacd player or later 3d BD capability)

If people didn't want any of that stuff and just wanted to play games, none of those features add value. If I can buy a TV for £400, or a Smart TV for £600 with voice control, face recognition, Amazon Shopping built in, numerous apps, video capture, record to SD card, yada yada, the £400 option is better value by far than me paying for stuff I didn't want.

A 499 euro wifi equipped Xbox 360 20GB model is a much, much better value proposition. Who needs 60GB or a user upgradable hdd? Free online was also bullshit. And controllers with built-in batteries? I'd rather buy AA batteries, no thanks Sony.

The specifics of XB360's value are far more complex than your simple argument. eg. Replaceable batteries in the controllers can be seen as a good thing. It's certainly not an absolute disadvantage as you suggest (use rechargables). Other arguments are nonsense like PS3 having 98% BC. Euro PS3's had no real BC, and I think in the end XB360 had more XB titles that ran than PS3 had PS2 titles work. BRD brought nothing to PS3's games versus XB360s, so the added cost if you didn't want to watch HD discs was negative. And the Wifi adaptor, you could use alternatives to the overpriced option on XB360.

This discussion doesn't really belong here, and this thread is spawning far too many off-shoots. Is it worth another, or should the thread be closed up, or what?

 

[goonergaz]

Whatever was inside the PS3, it was overpriced. 599 euros is just a stupid idea... And they were losing nearly 200 dollars per machine at the beginning... The worst console of Sony...

I'm not quite sure how to take this post, from a price PoV the PS3 was expensive until you added a HDD & WiFi into the X360 - then MS was charging to play online, I remember talking to my Xbox fan friend at work and the PS3 was actually cheaper and had Bluray and HDMI to boot. What used to happen was people would buy the core then realise they needed extras and pay way of the odds for those extras...hell I had to pay £50 (fifty pounds) for a scart lead because my TV didn't have component and I refused to play on composhit! Worst ever console of Sony? Well considering their other consoles it's hardly surprising, they were all almost perfect bar the PS3, but even that was a good console.

 

[goonergaz]

If people didn't want any of that stuff and just wanted to play games, none of those features add value. If I can buy a TV for £400, or a Smart TV for £600 with voice control, face recognition, Amazon Shopping built in, numerous apps, video capture, record to SD card, yada yada, the £400 option is better value by far than me paying for stuff I didn't want.

The problem was people didn't know it was needed until it was too late. Like the HDD, you really needed one.

The specifics of XB360's value are far more complex than your simple argument. eg. Replaceable batteries in the controllers can be seen as a good thing. It's certainly not an absolute disadvantage as you suggest (use rechargables). Other arguments are nonsense like PS3 having 98% BC. Euro PS3's had no real BC, and I think in the end XB360 had more XB titles that ran than PS3 had PS2 titles work. BRD brought nothing to PS3's games versus XB360s, so the added cost if you didn't want to watch HD discs was negative. And the Wifi adaptor, you could use alternatives to the overpriced option on XB360.

This discussion doesn't really belong here, and this thread is spawning far too many off-shoots. Is it worth another, or should the thread be closed up, or what?

First I heard of it, wish I'd known at the time (I did look into it)

 

[iroboto]

This discussion doesn't really belong here, and this thread is spawning far too many off-shoots. Is it worth another, or should the thread be closed up, or what?

It originally started off as a Scorpio thread, and since the discussion kept bringing back in 4Pro, we altered the name to properly describe the discussion that was happening. I personally look to this thread for news about Scorpio, but there hasn't been any really. I get more info about Scorpio through my sources than I do on the internet lately, which is to say there is not a lot out there (that isn't public and leaked news keeps referring back to the news already released). MS is pretty tight lipped this year, they've been relatively quiet and lock down any real information about the console.

Which is fine, I think for MS to succeed this year, absolute secrecy is a must, controlling communication this time around before launch is really critical and I hope for the sake of them rebuilding their brand and reputation, that they succeed.

My concerns (about what we know already/don't know) ?
Not many, I do fear heating and quality issues as always, this is my priority, then price. I like my consoles quiet and I like them running without heating issues. This recent thread on Neogaf has me slightly concerned: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1355978

If anyone has ever had cooling problems can recognize these types of symptoms. Where the problem could exist I don't know for sure, but I assume the GPU side of things.

 

[goonergaz]

It originally started off as a Scorpio thread, and since the discussion kept bringing back in 4Pro, we altered the name to properly describe the discussion that was happening. I personally look to this thread for news about Scorpio, but there hasn't been any really. I get more info about Scorpio through my sources than I do on the internet lately, which is to say there is not a lot out there (that isn't public and leaked news keeps referring back to the news already released). MS is pretty tight lipped this year, they've been relatively quiet and lock down any real information about the console.

Which is fine, I think for MS to succeed this year, absolute secrecy is a must, controlling communication this time around before launch is really critical and I hope for the sake of them rebuilding their brand and reputation, that they succeed.

My concerns (about what we know already/don't know) ?
Not many, I do fear heating and quality issues as always, this is my priority, then price. I like my consoles quiet and I like them running without heating issues. This recent thread on Neogaf has me slightly concerned: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1355978

If anyone has ever had cooling problems can recognize these types of symptoms. Where the problem could exist I don't know for sure, but I assume the GPU side of things.

Wasn't that part of the problem with XBO? That they didn't talk about the whole digital 'always on' feature until it was too late, and then when they 'u-turned' on that they released details of this utopian system that all the Xbox fans wanted them to implement.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I decree this thread is too unwieldy and unfocussed. Scorpio discussion is now here should anything new come to light. Marketing and whatnot talk already exists in the What Next threads. Other random discussions like why people bought PS3 or XB360 should be started in new threads if people want to talk about that.