The 360 got succesful here, now the Playstation brand is stronger. This round the Xbox lost most of the ground it won I would think (no data available to me).
Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]
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MSFT managed to keep the Xbox afloat in the US by fighting on prices, the 1S improved the situation, yet they still (mostly) loose in their main territory, a territory which they used to rule over. I don't see that a good "gamble". It is yet to be seen what the reacion of the XBox owners will be to a "so called upgrade" with 4 times the GPU power of the original model. In Europe that was clearly the kiss of death, for a product in its third year that is quite a feat...
PS: I am not fond of the Ps4Pro-Ps4 combo as imho VR was a more relevant drive to develop the product than the raise of 4K TV sets. As I expected Vr is still not ready to captures the masses.
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I know and I know many people buying 360 in France because of the PS3 price... The Xbox One was 499 euros with Kinect... PS3 599 euros it is crazy and the worst at the beginning they lost nearly 200 dollars on every console.
Kuturagi completly lost his mind with the PS3...
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We had end of 2015 some number and it was 75%/25% PS4/Xbox One in France. Later during 2016 we had more than 80% PS4 marketshare in Germany.
All the "leak" of GFK number in Europe were PR "leak" on Sony side...
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I can only speak from personal viewpoint but it makes a difference as Microsoft have been talking down generations, in which case you must assume Scorpio will at some point will get games released exclusively for it where the PS4 pro will always be tied to the PS4. That performance delta makes this more plausible in my mind and a large part why I hope for a good CPU uplift over PS4 Pro.
To me the interest in Scorpio derives from it should have its own full lifespan that I can buy into now , rather than PS4 Pro where you know its got a limited life because its tied to PS4. This in part is possibly the same reasoning many 360 owners had when the went to PS4 knowing it was more powerful, I did not so cannot truthfully say.
I will say as a non PS4 owner the Pro so far has failed to excite so far; the hardware in Scorpio interests me greatly, however I do think Microsoft need to wow us to justify its later arrival. Also if they could make it look sexy like the S so its easier to sell the idea to the boss that would be grand, the One S set the bar with ease of entry into the living room
Third party publisher don't want a new generation now. 2017 and 2018 will be very important year for big publisher, with less R&D cost and more profit. In EA earning, CFO tells to investor that PS4 Pro and Scorpio will not increase R&D...
It is the financial aspect of the thing. The second one is the technological one, technology improvement is slowing down since PS3/360 generation and the Scorpio is not a new generation... 50% more memory than PS4/Xbox One is not enough for a new generation...And 40% more power than PS4 Pro is not enough too...
I expect at least 32 Gb of RAM for PS5/Xbox Two...
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Not saying your wrong, but what would you do with all that memory?
Need to load it, so would need a fast drive probably ssd otherwise it would be really slow.
If you've got ssd or fast drive of some sort, then streaming data in would probably be more than viable.
Guess can see it going the streaming route with things like amd's HBC.
I do except that given more memory devs would find a use for it though.
They will find something to do with it. And speaking with someone working on a PS4 exclusive about Scorpio.. He said the most interesting things is not the GPU power or the bandwidth but the 4GB of memory. But he likes the bandwidth memory too...
Edit: After the Problem will be to be tied to the PS4/Xbox One generation without good use of the additional RAM.
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I'm not that surprised by that response, the extra memory (if we assume there's 12gb) will make a difference that the people who say it's only 50% more powerful seem to continually overlook.
Like I said I'm sure they would find a use for 32gb, so you just doubled the memory to come to that figure then? Cool, thought you may have specific idea why you chose that figure.
Personally I'm not sure that just because that's the way it was in the past, is why it needs to follow that trajectory in the future.
32Gb is my guess. Each generation the memory is x8 but I doubt this will be the case this time. He doesn't know anything about PS5 and even if he was knowing, he would not tell me, NDA. He just speaks about anecdote or revealed title...
Another thing if you don't like noisy console. During benchmark and trying doing more things with PS4 Pro the console is noisy like the og PS4 maybe a bit more far from a PS4 Slim...
And It seems crazy but Horizon Zero Dawn doesn't push the og PS4 to the limit, they have some margin for a new game...
Edit: he does not work on HZD but use the Decima engine...
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Indeed, which is what my point wanted to convey. Graphics and performance ain't everything, which is why I am doubtful that Scorpio despite offering a clear performance advantage (on paper) will actually make any difference if the experience stays the same. And the experience will stay the same, because each and every developer will be limited by the fact that they will have to develop their games to run on the base model too. This means that benefits will be limited to resolution, image-quality, visuals and framerate.
The performance difference will probably ensure that Scorpio will be able to run these games at native 4k resolution at a more consistent framerate and if performance allows more benefits, we might see more detailed visuals, similar to running a game on PC on lower or higher settings (like what we are seeing now on PS4pro). We will not see a "jump" like we do when going from a generation to a new generation of consoles when every developer starts from scratch and leaves the old behind.
jay said:
They won't because the resolution difference will also be more than 4 times higher too. People without 4k sets will see less of a gain. Still, even if all current Xb1 owners decide to migrate to a Xb1Scorpio, they will not yield more software sales. They might achieve more hardware sales (which will give us the illusion of a higher install base), but they will not be expanding the market from that. What will certainly help are people who have not bought either a PS4 or Xb1 and instead of being faced with buying the inferior Xb1 that is selling worse, there might be an argument to support buying the more powerful Scorpio vs the Pro. The counter argument would be that the PS4 is the best selling console outthere by quite a margin and that in reality, the visual difference between both is less than the 'paper spec' suggest in reality because both the Pro and Scorpio are limited by the necessity to support the base models.
Adding to that, the difference in resolution between native 4k (Scorpio) and lets say some funky upscaled 1440p or higher buffer (PS4pro) will very much depend on the size of the screen and its viewing distance. I'm doubtful you could pin point any difference, even if you are lucky enough to have two identical gaming stations in a store standing next to each other, running the same game and the same scene side by side, 2TF difference or not. We will see, I'm sure.
Ranger said:
You are looking at it the wrong way Ranger (and you should know best, after all you are the one picking out the sales numbers right?).
1.) PS4 hasn't sold double in NA - it sold better yes, but not double. The PS4 however has sold better in pretty much all other markets, in some probably up to 3 times higher.
2.) PS3 was already extremely strong in these other markets - how else would it have been able to reach parity globally?
3.) PS3 was extremely overpriced and over a year late to the party. Remember X360 sold for $399, the PS3 launched at $499/$599. This was coming off a generation when people were used to spending $299 for consoles.
4.) I'd say NA is the most price conscious market. We've been paying more for consoles in Europe for decades. As such, the PS3 wasn't priced higher relative to the PS2 in Europe.
5.) The 360s head start was significant because it was competing with consoles running at VGA resolution in a period when people were buying 720p/1080i/1080p HD displays. It was arguably one of the biggest visual jumps we've had since the jump to 3d.
Add all these factors together and you have a winner. At least in NA where the X360 pulled away with strong sales. It's amazing how the PS3 was able to recover some ground thanks to strong EU and Japan sales, but it never quite caught up (and if my memory serves me right, it never quite managed to beat the X360 in monthly sales in NA). If Sony had launched with a packed X360 in PS3 shell at the same time at the same price ($399), I'd imagine we'd end up with a similar gap like we have now with the PS4 vs the XB1. However they would have lost Bluray. To a degree, I'd argue the PS3's success was sacrificed to ensure the success of Bluray.
This is false I would say;
a) multi-platform games that include PC can sometimes have graphic options that are specifically for PC and PC only, they can go as far as making these features work on only certain brands of GPU, see nVidia, game works, hair works, tressFX etc.
b) See http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/gu...e-division-pc-exclusive-graphics-enhancements
^^^ All these features require Maxwell 2 and above, but the game can clearly scale to GPUs that are not FL 12_0+
I'm not going to imply all these games will have advanced features, it's certainly up to the developer to add them in, but if Scorpio is FL12_0+ which I'm fairly confident it is, it's going to have hardware options that exist on Maxwell 2+, and Vega+. If Ubisoft and other companies are already comfortable with doing nvidia specific optimizations, I assure you Scorpio hardware features will be a non issue.
That feature gap is a bigger deal imo than the amount of computational power you can increase.
http://www.boerse-online.de/nachric...soft-mit-der-PS4-in-Deutschland-ab-1001354158
No in Germany it is not 3 times it is at least 4 times higher and directly from GFK number. I can search Portugal or Spain or Italy last number it was 7 to 8 times higher last official number...
http://www.jeuxactu.com/france-la-ps4-est-la-console-la-plus-vendue-en-2015-102342.htm
In France last "official" number it was 3 times higher directly from GFK... And the Xbox One had it peak year before 2016 in France...
And out of UK, US and Canada or Mexico maybe Brazil, France and Germany are the best Xbox country as crazy as it seems...
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You was asking who would care, not about expanding market. I gave you example of people who would care.
going from 900 or 1080p to 1400 or 1800p isn't using up all the Gpu power in resolution. Only ms has said they are aiming for 4k, I've not heard what any other publisher has said on the matter as of yet.
For all we know may see a bigger increase than what the 'paper spec' would imply. We don't know yet, we don't even know the actual full paper spec yet.
As for seeing even less difference in 1080p, I would argue may actually see the biggest difference there.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1065407
Spain last official number 9 PS4 for one Xbox One
EDIT: Portugal number
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1040572
no comparison with Xbox because Microsoft don't give number but from 2007
The underpowered PS3 annihilate the 360...
Spain last official number 9 PS4 for one Xbox One
EDIT: Portugal number
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1040572
no comparison with Xbox because Microsoft don't give number but from 2007
The underpowered PS3 annihilate the 360...
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http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...reater-than-90-per-cent-in-continental-europe
Worst marketshare in 2015 was 70% for the PS4 and they often had 90% marketshare in continental europe directly from the SIE Europe boss
Worst marketshare in 2015 was 70% for the PS4 and they often had 90% marketshare in continental europe directly from the SIE Europe boss
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People thinking power is very important in sales aren't right, price and brand are much more important... And it depends of the market too...
EDIT: And when a console is the leader of a market, the network effect begins to happen with people buying the same console than friends...
EDIT2: For casuals, special feature like kinect of wiimote are important too
EDIT: And when a console is the leader of a market, the network effect begins to happen with people buying the same console than friends...
EDIT2: For casuals, special feature like kinect of wiimote are important too
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Of course this entire conversion/discussion is in regards to the market as a whole. I'm sure there are some Joes outthere who marvel over specs, even if there is absolutely no correlation to what they are seeing on screen. I'm speaking in context of the market. The PS4pro is labeled and marketed as a 4k capable console. Technically, this is correct - regardless how developers accomplish this. It's either an upscaled 1440p image with multiple buffer-layers or it's checkerboard rendered. Maybe there is some other fancy processing going on. No doubt, a native 4k frame will be of higher quality, but the difference will be negligible, just as the difference between 720p and 900p is (or 900p vs 1080p) for most gamers.
Jay said:
This is where I am certain you are deluding yourself. We can already point to PS4pro that is on the market to see the difference between 4TF hardware and 1.8TF hardware. It isn't there, it's not substantial. And there is a higher jump from PS4 to PS4pro than there will be when going from PS4pro to Scorpio. If the Scorpio would use all it's available 6TF to render graphics at 1080p, it would be a different argument, but that too would be rather daft given they want to appeal to all these people buying 4k screens. 4k is a feature you want to check. It's the train everyone is jumping on, similar to when HD came out, then FullHD etc. "It's the next big thing" - the one thing that is getting consumers to replace their TVs again and have us upgrade Bluray to BlurayUHD. Or buy new surround hifis so that we can get our hands on DTS-X and Atmos.
Turkey said:
If they do that, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. When Scorpio launches, they [Microsoft] will support the base model and Scorpio at the same time. If they don't - they will upset the 25+ million Xbox users and those who have just gone out to buy a Xb1s. So day 1 - they will have games that support both consoles. One being the base model, the other being the 4k capable machine. One will look better than the other, but the former will not be leaps and bounds better than the PS4pro because it may be pushing more pixels for a higher native screen res. Worst case - they'll be doing the same resolution, but the more capable hardware will be running slightly higher settings similar to what we see in PC games when comparing to consoles. And even if this makes for a noticeable difference, I think it won't matter in regards to the market because they are a year late to the party.
The experience will be the same (as I'm sure no one would argue that the PC experience is better because of the better graphics). I certainly don't see a big benefit when comparing BF1 running on PC vs. BF1 running on the PS4 base model. One has better visuals yes, but both offer the same experience.
The same can not be said when comparing say a PS3 and the PS4 version of a game where the performance difference between these two hardwares is a generational leap.
If you count north america and uk the difference of sales between Xbox One and PS4/PS4 Pro is not so big(3/3,5 millions???)... The difference comes from the rest of the world...
EDIT: If at the end of generation PS4/PS4 PRo is behind Xbox One/Sorpio in US it will not be a total surprise at least imo... But it will not be because of the power but of the Xbox brand...
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While thinking about pricing for Scorpio, I think that MS could offer a substantial subsidy for a digital only SKU. The NPV of a digital only early adopter should easily exceed $500 and may approach $1000 if MS takes a licensing fee in addition to the 30% commission. With that much margin available, MS could be very aggressive on pricing the digital SKU selling a $499 BOM Scorpio at $399 would be a no brainer. The value acquiring a PS4 customer and brand new console buyers is even higher if MS is successful in their generation-less strategy.
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