Okay, I guess there's no arguing against someone who isn't being consistent.
GT 5 Prologue this fall, Gran Turismo 5 spring 2008
- Thread starter MasaC
- Start date
Okay, I guess there's no arguing against someone who isn't being consistent.
I suggest you watch GT:HD drift replays and compare them to that video
Also its not that easy to do such drift in the game. UNLIKE arcade racers
I'm not trying to troll but he's going at 20-30 mph but the player in the game is going 60-70 mph through the same turns.
What's the problem here? Your argument is that the Evo would need modding to perform like the video, yet the game does specifically have a Drift mode and a pre-defined set of tuned cars. Show me a time trial replay of the standard Evo doing that, and then we'll talk.
You actually measured the turns and found out they are the same? Or their speed just by watching?
edit: Also that car is definetely NOT going only 20-30 mph.
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Movies can represent how these cars get damaged in reality
In computer games, developers can't know all inner workings of cars let alone simulate them in realtime so manufacturers can always sue them claiming they incorrectly used their trademark to represent something other.My biggest problem with GT4 was that i could take turns on nurburgring (in the same car, with stock everything) at 2x the speed i could take the same turn in real life.
Aspecially the 180degree turn @nurburgring was funny, because aparently, my CLK500 can do that turn in 70mph with stock tires, and i could barely stay on the track with Pirelli P-Zero 18" tires @ 40 mph.
That and the AI.
However, GT is still the game that made me buy a PS2, and probably will be this gen aswell
Actually I just found out you can only use a different set of cars modded for drifting for drift trials.
But yeah I've heard of people saying their cars simply don't do what they measured themselves in real life and polyphony themselves said the physics are altered to match magazine times.
That is so funny. The next video when I watched that is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-T7KxkeM90&NR=1
As regards to your later posts, the exact criticism I and many others had of GT4 was that some cars were almost impossible to get into drift in the game, where it was easy in real life. Interesingly enough precisely some of the games we had the most problems with are in GT:HD. The Mazda MX-5 was one - this little car drifts very easily in real life, and is almost impossible to get into a drift in GT4 (stock). Drifting in GT4 took some very heavy modding, but my boss has a stock 1992 NA MX-5 and he can get that into drifts easily and controllably no problem - the car's 50/50 weight balancing really helps here, together with having the right balance of weight and power.
Although tire grip and suspension is an aspect of driving model that has been improved in GT:HD considerably overall, the issue with the Evo in GT4 was partly do to a different problem. By default, all Evos were set up with a drive-train distribution over the front and rear axels that was set-up for rally. But in real life, you'd never use that setup for asphalt racing, which is why when you buy an Evo in the store, normally it will be setup with more power to the rear. You can't even change this yourself in a lot of the models, and neither can you in the game. I'm sure this wasn't the only problem, but it did seem to be a major issue for GT4 when driving the Evo's, which compared to some other cars just ended up feeling a lot more like overpowered heavy pos cars than they really are in real life.
Apart from that, in GT:HD you can select 9 different tyres from three categories, and fit different sets to the rear and front. Not bad for a demo, and obviously it certainly helps with what you can do to make the car more drift-friendly. And hey, that happens to be very similar to what people do in real life. Isn't that a coincidence?
As with regards to the claims from the gentleman with the Mercedes who, like me, has had the opportunity to compare driving on the Nurburgring in the game with the same experience in real life, I would like to know more details on the exact comparison he has made. This includes the tires used in game and in the car, but also whether or not tire-wear was on and lots of other stuff like that. I mean, sure, there are limits to GT4 in terms of how realistic it did and could simulate real life, but overall the two match amazingly well. I am actually someone who learnt driving from (among others) this game, and started driving in real life only a few years ago. I was lucky in having a driving instructor who was heavily into rally racing and driving, and when he discovered my background he allowed me to do all sorts of tests, like if I had a healthy understanding/feel of where the limits of grip take place, how precise I could steer, and so on, and he was very impressed. (in reality, for us in the netherlands all that counts for your exam is your understanding of traffic, because that's what it's all about here.
)Of course I would never claim to be the know-all end-all expert on this topic, but I do have a long and detailed history with the GT series, and having hung out and raced with several groups of people in different European countries, most of whom where car-fans first, and then Gran Turismo fans second, I feel I have a right to at least question some of the comments here.
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Double post
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GT4 = stock tires, tire-wear off, no aids on. car: CLK 55 AMG '00
Real life car= day old (not used on track before) P-Zero tires, CLK 500K kleeman with full AMG setup (suspension, bodykit etc) (different engines, but its the same car, same body, same suspension etc and the speed of which you can take the corners at should be more or less exactly the same.
My new car, an '06 CLK 500 is also way to slower compared to the old one on nurburgring. Forza Motorsport is a bit to fast as well, but not so much (and this has nothing to do with me playing it safe in real life, in a lot of the bends there isn't much "risk" to damaging the car if you run out on the tarmack).
Overall, me and my mate reckon GT4 is about 20-30 mph to fast in turns on average, after doing some comparisons with his porsche boxter s (comparing it to the 3400s RUF). The difference isn't bad at all, Forza was a bit more off if i remember correctly, i think thats because the scale of the tracks seems a bit wrong compared to real life. (If you compare size of car vs size of track).
It's a shame that a day on the track requires you to buy new tires, expensive in the long run =(
Ditto
Yup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72yyvNAU8Bg
Here is another comparison, seems GT4 hits the spot quite nicely if the driver is a pro?
Ok, first of all it is very important that you run with tire-wear on. This takes into account both the tire-wear and the heat of the tire. If you are on cold tires, that makes a huge difference in the game, and road tires barely heat up at all compared to racing tires.
A day old car? Are you even allowed to push that car? How hot were the wheels? What tire pressure? And how are the cars set-up? Both in the game, and in real life? And are you sure that the weight of the two cars is the same? Don't they normally differ by about 300 kilos?
I'm not saying it is impossible that they made a mistake for some cars, as I've pointed out they have done with the MX-5 and Evo for instance. But I hugely disagree with your comment that "GT4 is about 20-30 mph to fast in turns on average". That is absolutely outrageous, as well as a weird statement in itself. Even in very fast corners 20-30mph (32-48km/h) seems quite a lot, but if you had qualified the comment like that - saying that in turns where you could, say, go 160km/h in real life, you could manage 200km/h in the game, then I might have understood. I wouldn't even have agreed with those without knowing the exact details of the comparison, but I would have at least considered it to be within the realm of possibility.
Forza doesn't have the Nurburgring in it. That is to say, they made a huge error in scaling the track (something like 75%) so that there is no match (as you point out yourself here later on). So unfortunately you can't use it for any kind of comparisons. Forza also doesn't even lean the cars forwards when you brake, so that's kind of weird to begin with.
Knowing how much RUF generally changes a car, does that comparison even make sense? And again, it is important to know the conditions.
Yes, as I said, they made a big error setting up the scale (or they did it on purpose to allow for more overtaking, I don't know)
True. That's why I like that computer games are getting better and better.
In many respect I already prefer computer games, because you can compete with someone eliminating nearly all aspects of luck, under the exact same circumstances, so that all you measure is steermanship and consistency.Ditto
Yup.[/QUOTE]
There is a show called "faking it" in the UK. One hilarious episode depicted a "game tester" (who boasted that he specialized in play testing racing games) attempting to pass for a race driver after 4 weeks of top class instruction. His attitude from the start was a disaster, and a lot of that was down to how he assumed that because he was good behind the logitech wheel he would have a jump on anyone else. Despite all those (wasted) hours following racing lines on the screen, by the end of the first day he was just as much all thumbs as any random individual pulled from their daily driver. He never recovered, was a risk to himself and others, and the entire exercise was a disaster for all involved.
I think a computer racing sim, any of them, can be a fun way of learning the broad shape of a track map, and thats about it. There is way more of a learning curve in a good instructional book, let alone actual seat time with instruction. Anyone who starts out in racing thinking their sim experience is going to give them some kind of advantage that lasts past the first day or two, is a risky student!
I think a computer racing sim, any of them, can be a fun way of learning the broad shape of a track map, and thats about it. There is way more of a learning curve in a good instructional book, let alone actual seat time with instruction. Anyone who starts out in racing thinking their sim experience is going to give them some kind of advantage that lasts past the first day or two, is a risky student!
Offcourse and the smartest thing that you can is doing it on a official playstation board. Its the best place to break NDA's and letting developers do the negative PR for a particulary game !
Bigus Dickus is right...It really is because of a liscenced agreement.
I had the prviilege of interning for a law firm and one of their clients is a car manufacturer...
they get really butt hurt in a big way if their product is "misrepresented" in any way... be it in a game or a billboard (as the complaint was in this case)...
they hate the idea of their product being "blemished".
Sorry, but that's nonsense. There are plenty of aspects of racing you can't learn from GT4 right now, like
- driving a powerful car without ABS (as the game is somewhat weak still in simulating locking wheels)
- how to work the clutch (there is no clutch pedal support currently although some aspects of a clutch are still simulated)
- how to deal with a car that tips over (this is currently not supported in GT, which, yes is due to car manufacturors, this excuse is actually true)
- how to race in a large pack of cars (only 6 cars supported)
- how to deal with damage (no damage supported)
- learning about some parts of a car's setup (for instance tire pressure isn't currently supported, something I have played with in PC sim mods).
- knowing about a cars power curve (peak torque at which rpms and such, so that you know within which rpm range you have to keep a car while shifting)
But all the stuff about:
- brake points
- different lines for overtaking
- best lines in general
- acceleration efficiently (keeping enough traction, keeping the best corner-speed)
- braking (timing it right, keeping sufficient grip, braking into a corner, reigning a car back in that threatens to brake out)
- differences between FF, FR, RR, MR and 4WD cars
- feeling out the limits of tire grip
- how all of these can be completely different in different cars
- and many more aspects
I am 100% sure Gran Turismo can teach you enough on these subjects to be quite useful. Of course I do think that proper competition can be vital here - if you race competitively (as I have done) on LAN parties with some of the best, or you work on getting the best time trial times in the world in this game, you will be forced to learn about a lot of these aspects, and watching others or analysing your own splits will help you see where you are losing or winning time and allow you to draw conclusions about what techniques are responsible.
Even the game itself, if you get gold on the Gran Turismo 4 licences, you will have learnt way more beyond 'the general layout of a track'.
Heck, there are even examples of professional racing teams commissioning a version of Gran Turismo to help them train more efficiently (and cheaply). One example is the special Lupo Cup Car version featuring one of the Japanese tracks, which featured GT4 simulation technology not yet out at that point.
It is part of the reason why it works the other way around as well - people who are really good at racing in real life, are almost always also very good at Gran Turismo. This is why GT is one of those cross-over games, that allows someone who doesn't understand computers, but does understand cars to still enjoy a 'game'. I know a fair number of examples of this personally. (Interestingly enough, some of the best drivers in Gran Turismo - and other sims - were young talented drivers who simply grew too tall in puberty to continue a race driver career ... )
NovemberMike
Regular
Why does everyone say this? I have Forza loaded up right now and I tuned a car to the min springs and a high ride. The lean is very noticable...
Day old tires, not day old car. Car was about 4 years at that time.
Stock everything.
70kg difference.
Well, nurburgring in general have very fast turns, but i agree the way i wrote it didn't sound very well.
If anyone ever manages to get in the simulation GT4 cabinet in the Mitsubishi booth at a car exhibition he will completely change his opinion about GT being very far from trying to be a car simulation.
There are two versions of that simulation btw. One even involves a clutch
It was xtremely hard to stay on road and manage the same lap times compared to the ones when playing the same exact track and car at home with a controller or a logitech steering wheel.
Because there are so many forces affecting your performance when driving in a real life, no matter how precise a game is to real life driving you will never be affected by them at your living room seat. Unless ofcourse you manage to sit in that simulation cabinet or drive a real car
There are two versions of that simulation btw. One even involves a clutch
It was xtremely hard to stay on road and manage the same lap times compared to the ones when playing the same exact track and car at home with a controller or a logitech steering wheel.
Because there are so many forces affecting your performance when driving in a real life, no matter how precise a game is to real life driving you will never be affected by them at your living room seat. Unless ofcourse you manage to sit in that simulation cabinet or drive a real car
