Formula 1 - 2011 Season

[Kaotik]

Even before the turn he lost that "right", as Hamilton was well beyond half-way past him, and yet Massa still made the decision of turning *into* Hamilton where other drivers would sensibly react and take the outside. He did the opposite, and looking over the replay again, if he wasn't blind, then he was almost certainly damned well aware of Hamilton after checking his left mirror no less than four times.

edit: worse yet, it seems Hamilton realized Massa wouldn't leave him room and tried to back off from overtaking. This seems to be where people are largely attributing Hamilton as not sufficiently being past Massa.

You fail to understand that there's no "outside line" in that corner, it's the line Massa was taking, or going off the track.
What's questionable, if anything, is if Hamilton could have even taken the corner without hitting Massa even in the case that Massa would have taken the "outside line" and gone off track - Hamilton was on dirty track and far too in, Massa was on clean racing line, outside would be marbles and dirt so much that traction is only something one could dream off in such sudden switch of line.

edit:
watching replay few times, this is the closest Hamilton ever came to overtaking - note how Massa is on racing line here and Hamilton far too in, with dust blowing all over from his tires

Also Hamilton didn't really "back off", Massa just braked a bit later since he could do that on the racing line - Hamilton couldn't have braken any later on his line even if Massa wasn't anywhere near him, and even at his braking point it's questionable wether he could have taken the corner or not

 

[AlphaWolf]

Massa and Hamilton should be forced to drive in a demolition derby to get it out of their systems.

I hope Vettel can match Schumachers 13 wins. Not sure there's much else at stake for the last couple races, (except for their jobs).

 

[cjo]

Kaotik. If it was the other way round, you'd be shouting about how Hamilton should have known a fast car was coming up behind him, with KERS available, and how he shouldn't have tried to barge Massa off the track by moving over to the left for the corner.

The stewards have far more information available than you, and have far more experience. If they penalize Hamilton, they didn't go far enough and they should be considering the death penalty, and if they penalize the other guy they're wrong.

We KNOW you hate Hamilton, and can probably accurately predict exactly what you'll say after each race. That is, nothing if Hamilton isn't involved in an incident, and 'OMG HAMILTON TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRECKED $NAME_OF_DRIVER'S RACE' if he is. We know there isn't possibly a situation on earth that you think Hamilton would be in the right, so please,please,please,please,please stop with your biased nonsense.


EDIT: Massa clearly doesn't know how to drive as he broke his suspension twice doing exactly the same thing You'd have thought he'd have learned

 

[Kaotik]

I don't hate Hamilton. I hate his previous seasons arrogant behaviour, comparing himself to likes of Senna and Prost & co on his first season etc etc.

And I know it's not a coincidence that he has been in fron of stewards after the race for what, every but 1 GP of the season?

He does stupid moves, goes to gaps that don't exist ending up crashing others and sometimes himself out.

In this particular case, Massa had 3 options
1) Do what he did and assume the overtaker, who never quite got side by side AND braked earlier, knows to slow down due unsuccesfull overtaking attempt
2) Run out from track and hope Hamilton doesn't crash to him anyway (high speeds on far too inwards line on really, really dirty track)
3) Slow to complete stop and telling Hamilton "Sure, pass me, I don't mind, it's not like we're racing or anything"

Tell me even 1 racer who would pick something else than nr. 1

 

[cjo]

I don't hate Hamilton. I hate his previous seasons arrogant behaviour, comparing himself to likes of Senna and Prost & co on his first season etc etc.

Other drivers have had incidents that cause other drivers to retire and you don't so much as comment on those. Hamilton does something that delays another driver by 0.1 sec and he should be black flagged.

I would be surprised if many of the drivers in F1 actually think that they aren't the best driver on the planet if you removed the difference in cars.

And I know it's not a coincidence that he has been in fron of stewards after the race for what, every but 1 GP of the season?

After the race, no, not that many. I believe that most of the incidents have been dealt with during the race.

He does stupid moves, goes to gaps that don't exist ending up crashing others and sometimes himself out.

Many other drivers do this. You don't comment on them. If drivers do this to Hamilton, you would actively praise them.

In this particular case, Massa had 3 options
1) Do what he did and assume the overtaker, who never quite got side by side AND braked earlier, knows to slow down due unsuccesfull overtaking attempt
2) Run out from track and hope Hamilton doesn't crash to him anyway (high speeds on far too inwards line on really, really dirty track)
3) Slow to complete stop and telling Hamilton "Sure, pass me, I don't mind, it's not like we're racing or anything"

Tell me even 1 racer who would pick something else than nr. 1

Hamilton was far enough alongside him that to abort his move, he would have had to come to a stop on the track. Massa knew he was there and should have taken action to avoid a collision. Like I said, if the positions were reversed, you'd have complained that Hamilton was trying to ram Massa off the track.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

EDIT: Massa clearly doesn't know how to drive as he broke his suspension twice doing exactly the same thing You'd have thought he'd have learned

As in: Hamilton who crashed into others this season for like what, half a dozen times already? You'd have though he'd have learned.

DC en Martin were also surprised it was Massa who got the penalty.

Anyway here is a interview with Massa: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/10/massa-i-have-nothing-against-hamilton/

Pretty much as said. He had the racing line and Hamilton wasnt close enough to him.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV35wj2iQKM&feature=related take a look at ~18 seconds. This is the moment Massa starts turning in while he is on the racing line and Hamilton is on the dirty, NOT so racy line. Hamilton's front wheel isn't even half way Massa's car. Also note how Hamilton could have never, ever hit the apex from that position even if Massa wouldnt have been there.

 

[Kaotik]

Other drivers have had incidents that cause other drivers to retire and you don't so much as comment on those. Hamilton does something that delays another driver by 0.1 sec and he should be black flagged.

I don't recall any such incident involving Hamilton (as in, Hamilton hitting someone and both continue normally)
Other drivers have had incidents, but not even close to as often as Hamilton. Repeating it over and over and over again is the key here.

I would be surprised if many of the drivers in F1 actually think that they aren't the best driver on the planet if you removed the difference in cars.

Think you're the best isn't the same as saying in public you're on the same level as the legends

After the race, no, not that many. I believe that most of the incidents have been dealt with during the race.

If I haven't understood something wrong, even if you get/don't get penalized during the race, all involved in incidents on race that have to go under investigation will also have to visit the stewards after the race, regardless of if they were already penalized or not.

Many other drivers do this. You don't comment on them. If drivers do this to Hamilton, you would actively praise them.

Again, repeat is the key here - sure, someone might crash here and there, but they don't do it in almost every race of the season.

Hamilton was far enough alongside him that to abort his move, he would have had to come to a stop on the track. Massa knew he was there and should have taken action to avoid a collision. Like I said, if the positions were reversed, you'd have complained that Hamilton was trying to ram Massa off the track.

Take a look at colibabs post, he wasn't anywhere near close enough alongside Massa.
If the positions were reversed, I wouldn't have complained Hamilton trying to ram Massa off the track, not in this case where the overtakes was clearly to blame if anyone.

 

[suryad]

anyway it was great race and n awesome showing by info in hosting their first f1. Makes me quite proud!

 

[Kaotik]

anyway it was great race and n awesome showing by info in hosting their first f1. Makes me quite proud!

Yeah. If there's something one could ask for next year, a little bit less dust please

 

[suryad]

Yeah. If there's something one could ask for next year, a little bit less dust please

LOL I hear you. Honestly I was surprised at first to see all that dust but then I realized oh wait, we are talking about India. One thing besides we got besides plenty of people is plenty of dust! never could figure out even in rural areas where all that dust came from. That track looks epic fun though. I would dearly love to ship my MV Agusta over there and take part in a track day on that track

 

[Phil]

I have to say, I am quite impressed by Michaels race and his pace this year. He may struggle in qualifying, but his race pace, impressive starts and race craft is undisputed. I am very much looking forward to see how his season next year wil turn out, hopefully in a stronger Mercedes.



As for some peoples favorite topic on here - here's something James Allen had to say about it:

* One final note: my take on the collision yesterday between Hamilton and Massa was that, as Massa said, he braked later than Hamilton on the grippy racing line, which is why you see him surge ahead half a car length just before he turns in. He told us yesterday evening he knew that Hamilton was inside before he braked and his mistake therefore was thinking that by braking later he’d got far enough ahead to turn in.

Compare this to the various battles Alonso and Webber have had lately, including in the opening laps on Sunday. Every time they try to pass they give each other room and that’s what Massa should have done in this incident. To turn in as he did, he knew that a collision was almost certain and that’s why he got a penalty.

Alonso and Webber respect each other and therefore do not collide. You can fill in the gaps for yourself.

Link

 

[Kaotik]

Then again, by the same logic as this could be seen as Massas fault, this could have been seen as Prosts fault - yet I doubt anyone really thinks it's Prosts fault?

 

[DJ12]

We get the picture, Hamilton is responsible for World War 1 and 2, Vietnam, Korea, starvation in Africa, HIV and Aids, Guns, Murder and all poverty.

Now can we move the heck along?....

 

[Kaotik]

We get the picture, Hamilton is responsible for World War 1 and 2, Vietnam, Korea, starvation in Africa, HIV and Aids, Guns, Murder and all poverty.

Now can we move the heck along?....

So instead of "moving along" you want to take that martyrous attitude. Yeah, great idea instead of trying to use valid arguments on behalf/against the drivers involved.

 

[cjo]

The best argument is that although he has been involved in several incidents, people with better knowledge of the rules, more technical knowledge and vastly more information than we could ever hope to see haven't given Hamilton any more serious punishments than a drive through / grid penalty, so while you may claim that he is trying to kill people, it likely isn't the case.

You can speculate however much you want about who is to blame for what accidents, but the stewards at the race know exactly who did what when, so disagreeing with their decisions is pretty much pointless. Whining about his behaviour after the stewards have given him an appropriate penalty within the rules of the sport is pointless, as is protesting Massa's innocence when people with far more information and knowledge have decided otherwise.

 

[suryad]

Honestly I was surprised Massa got the penalty...not because I think Hamilton was in the wrong...in fact I thought it was fair I just think it was a racing incident.

 

[Kaotik]

Honestly I was surprised Massa got the penalty...not because I think Hamilton was in the wrong...in fact I thought it was fair I just think it was a racing incident.

Which is also why I said several times that "if someone should be penalized it should be Hamilton", not that "Hamilton should be penalized", since IMO he was in the wrong and many (including ex-drivers) agree

 

[Tahir2]

Enough said really...

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Which is also why I said several times that "if someone should be penalized it should be Hamilton", not that "Hamilton should be penalized", since IMO he was in the wrong and many (including ex-drivers) agree

So basically because Hamilton braked earlier (telemetry which the stewards have access to obviously show this, as well as Massa admitting to it) and Massa turned into him even knowing that Hamilton was there (again Massa admitting to it), it somehow is still Hamiltons fault in your eyes?

Really?

After all the only reason Massa had the lead going into the corner (which is what you base your entire argument on) is that Hamilton started braking earlier before entering the corner.

Regards,
SB

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Maybe you should take a look at the videos again. At no point Hamilton is infront of Massa. Hell, his front wing never goes beyond Massa's front wheel.

So fact is Massa had the lead, and the racing line the whole time. When Hamilton braked he should have realised that he was never going to be able to pass anyway (well, not without Massa going onto the dirt just for the sake of letting Hamilton pass) nor making the corner from that line.

But hamilton being hamilton, while being on the dirty side, behind a driver who's actually on the racing line and thus has all the rights to turn into the corner, decides to go with it anyway. Because he's Lewis motherfucking hamilton afterall and people should just give him a free pass.