Xbox Series S [XBSS] (Lockhart) General Rumors and Speculation *spawn*
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I still want them to not include optical drive but allow for external USB3 for optical media to install media from or play movies from. could be a very small flat slim-line unit that sits on top of or on the side of Lockhart.
your still loosing the volume of the drive that could instead be used for cooling or other components.
With heat pipes there is no reason to have a large heatsink over the APU you can have a small heat plate with a few heat pipes that go to a different side of the case kinda like the dreamcast
or like the surface design
We can move the SSD chips on to a stick that is suspended in the free space above the ports. In fact that SSD can be cooled better since it's no longer right under the PSU.
The freed space can be used for mobo. I.e. vrms.
I probably should move the SSD lot to the front, so the PSU can be bigger. The front USB port and IR will be moved off the main mobo.
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your still loosing the volume of the drive that could instead be used for cooling or other components.
With heat pipes there is no reason to have a large heatsink over the APU you can have a small heat plate with a few heat pipes that go to a different side of the case kinda like the dreamcast
or like the surface design
I assume they'd just use the appropriate heatsink rather than making the case any bigger or smaller than is necessary & independent of the presence of an optical drive. Heatpipes/plates may or may not add to the cost of a simpler conventional heatsink.
What I'm getting at is that the secondary I/O board for Anaconda is already larger in area than the optical drive. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they moved to a single PCB for LH (while it won't just be A+B total area since LH would have lower requirements & then elimination of overhead PCB area).
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Yes, the Surface line can get away with things that you can't with a console as it's a premium device targeting a premium price point.
That said, they are doing some neat things with the XBSX WRT the internals. But even then it's mostly cheaper aluminum versus much more expensive copper, not to mention the magnesium shell of the Surface line.
Regards,
SB
D
Deleted member 11852
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In compact mobile devices, options can be limited. I've not seen a teardown of a Surface but many high-end devices with a conventional heat sink/radiator design increasingly have a mixture of copper and aluminium. Copper has greater heat conductivity than aluminium, consequently aluminium dissipates heat faster so a design with copper on the core and aluminium fins to dissipate the heat quickly are common and work well.
This is one of those unusual engineering examples where going cheaper (because aluminium is a third of the price, a third of weight and easier to work with) can result in optimum results rather than going with the more-expensive all-copper design. This isn't universal, but it's quite common. Heat pipes and vapour chambers are typically all copper (rather than aluminium) or something even more expensive than copper.
There are a few non-commercial black box applications where very high-purity silver is used in the cooling system but this is prohibitively expensive.
edit: typos/grammar.
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Moved SouthBridge stuff to L shaped mobo raised above everything. The top mobo to the bottom is connected by a bus that's flush on the left of the front ssd slot.
I should probably push the PSU forward against the front, move the SSD slot to the back, and get rid of the front USB. The L shaped mobo then can be connected by a bus that runs over the front of the PSU. This would make the front of console less busy.
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I don't think it's an "if". But hopefully we don't have much longer to find out for sure.
Tommy McClain
Brad Sams was interviewed by Italian site SpazioGames.it...
https://www.spaziogames.it/xbox-series-s-prezzo-reveal-limiti-next-gen-jez-corden-speciale/
Here are some choice Google translated quotes...
Tommy McClain
https://www.spaziogames.it/xbox-series-s-prezzo-reveal-limiti-next-gen-jez-corden-speciale/
Here are some choice Google translated quotes...
Tommy McClain
I've never got how Lockhart for cloud gaming make sense. 4TF isn't enough when even Stadia is running 10.7 TF instances, old architecture or not, and Stadia will probably need to upgrade soon for next gen as well. But maybe I'm just uninformed.
Maybe cloud gaming clients, not cloud gaming servers.
D
Deleted member 13524
Guest
If it's a non-handheld console, Lockhart at >$300 is DOA, in my opinion.
I also find it difficult that a 4TF console won't hold many devs back. All the arguments saying it won't seem to suggest that GPU compute output demands will scale down with resolution in a perfectly linear manner. Which is odd, considering how Microsoft has been touting machine learning capabilities through GPU compute.
Is machine learning in the new Xbox going to be only used for graphics post processing? Does this mean the new xbox can't use Machine Learning for e.g. A.I. behavior and procedural generation of assets? AFAIK, either of those would have the same compute requirements for SeriesX and Lockhart both.
IIRC there's also been confirmation that the Series X will be using ray tracing for audio, which invariably also consumes compute throughput and a substantial amount of it, if Steam's Ray Traced Audio is any indication.
So either:
1 - Lockhart can't use ML for anything other than graphics post processing (meaning neither can the Series X), and it can't use audio raytracing either, among other possible limitations. In which case the 4 TFLOPs might scale linearly for the lower resolution but audio immersion is now reduced and ML use cases are very limited.
2 - Developers will need to take just as much compute throughput from Lockhart as they take from Series X for every machine learning operations that don't scale linearly with resolution (such as procedural generation and A.I.) and for audio ray tracing. At which point the proportion of non-graphics related compute throughput is always much larger for Lockhart, and then the 4 TFLOPs might fall really short even for 1080p.
Besides, are we also assuming Lockhart will get the exact same geometry performance as Series X? I thought geometry performance was now related to compute throughput due to mesh shaders, so are devs going to provide assets with weaker geometry too?
I guess in a pre-GPGPU era it would make sense to assume FLOPs would scale linearly with resolution, but not in 2020 going forward.
I also find it difficult that a 4TF console won't hold many devs back. All the arguments saying it won't seem to suggest that GPU compute output demands will scale down with resolution in a perfectly linear manner. Which is odd, considering how Microsoft has been touting machine learning capabilities through GPU compute.
Is machine learning in the new Xbox going to be only used for graphics post processing? Does this mean the new xbox can't use Machine Learning for e.g. A.I. behavior and procedural generation of assets? AFAIK, either of those would have the same compute requirements for SeriesX and Lockhart both.
IIRC there's also been confirmation that the Series X will be using ray tracing for audio, which invariably also consumes compute throughput and a substantial amount of it, if Steam's Ray Traced Audio is any indication.
So either:
1 - Lockhart can't use ML for anything other than graphics post processing (meaning neither can the Series X), and it can't use audio raytracing either, among other possible limitations. In which case the 4 TFLOPs might scale linearly for the lower resolution but audio immersion is now reduced and ML use cases are very limited.
2 - Developers will need to take just as much compute throughput from Lockhart as they take from Series X for every machine learning operations that don't scale linearly with resolution (such as procedural generation and A.I.) and for audio ray tracing. At which point the proportion of non-graphics related compute throughput is always much larger for Lockhart, and then the 4 TFLOPs might fall really short even for 1080p.
Besides, are we also assuming Lockhart will get the exact same geometry performance as Series X? I thought geometry performance was now related to compute throughput due to mesh shaders, so are devs going to provide assets with weaker geometry too?
I guess in a pre-GPGPU era it would make sense to assume FLOPs would scale linearly with resolution, but not in 2020 going forward.
@ToTTenTranz Audio ray tracing will not be a huge gpu demand. Steam audio uses general compute to calculate convolution reverb, but this is unlikely to be the case on xbox. They have a DSP for audio.
ML and Mesh Shaders will definitely be limited with a much slower GPU. Some concessions would have to be made for geometry, and ML would not necessarily scale the same way as resolution, depending on the use case.
ML and Mesh Shaders will definitely be limited with a much slower GPU. Some concessions would have to be made for geometry, and ML would not necessarily scale the same way as resolution, depending on the use case.
D
Deleted member 13524
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But will the DSP perform audio ray tracing? Note that I'm talking about Steam Audio's use of Radeon Rays for offline processing, not TrueAudio Next (which has no audio ray tracing). The fact that Valve hasn't even considered the possibility of using Radeon Rays for real-time audio says something about its compute requirements (note that at the date of that Valve post we already had GPUs with >25 TFLOPs FP16 in the market).
I think at least in the PS5 it's been confirmed that the audio ray tracing is coming from the same ray tracing units that are used for graphics, and they still resort to CU throughput. Tempest isn't doing any ray tracing AFAIK. So at least in the case of the PS5 the ray traced audio is consuming compute throughput out of the GPU.
PS5 and Xbox will both use raytracing hardware where necessary, but the burden of casting rays for audio is low. The processing intensive part is actually doing the convolution, which PS5 will do with Tempest and Xbox will do with a DSP.
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