Xbox Series S [XBSS] (Lockhart) General Rumors and Speculation *spawn*

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Jay

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Yea doesn't make sense for console manufacturers to drop support for those 150m+´users and expect them all to upgrade within a year.
Yea there's that business reason.

For me dropping the 50m XO's isn't the issue.
It's that the 1X is a fraction of that and to support the 1X even if it wasn't mandated by MS that you can't do one without the other, by the time you put in the work to get it running on 1X you may as well release on the 1S.
As is currently the case, lower resolution and settings with bad framerates.
Same hdd, cpu , gpu arch, software stack, feature set.
Get it running on all XO's or none at all is the only option.

With a Lockhart there's no place for a 1X. Good console, better than the 1S but it just wouldn't fit in the lineup, price, power, features. Too expensive to replace the 1S, not competive with Lockhart.
 

Rangers

Legend
Was there a $499 One X over the holidays? I know that was the MSRP, but they were $100 off everywhere I saw them. I know I didn't carry any X's this holiday because I couldn't get them wholesale for less than they were for sale retail at Walmart/Target/Gamestop/Best Buy.

Also, I hope Lockhart is marketed as an Xbox One refresh and not a "Series" Xbox. That way it can be named Xbox One Refresh All-digital Lockhart, so we can have the Xbox ORAL to go with our Xbox SeX.


Shoot Xbox One X was on sale briefly recently on Microsoft store for $199. Lowest I've seen them and kinda crazy.

Yea there's that business reason.

For me dropping the 50m XO's isn't the issue.
It's that the 1X is a fraction of that and to support the 1X even if it wasn't mandated by MS that you can't do one without the other, by the time you put in the work to get it running on 1X you may as well release on the 1S.
As is currently the case, lower resolution and settings with bad framerates.
Same hdd, cpu , gpu arch, software stack, feature set.
Get it running on all XO's or none at all is the only option.

With a Lockhart there's no place for a 1X. Good console, better than the 1S but it just wouldn't fit in the lineup, price, power, features. Too expensive to replace the 1S, not competive with Lockhart.


Probably it's much more difficult to cost reduce an old architecture than to design a low cost new one. That said I'm in team Lockhart isn't coming out, at least I hope not. But the idea of One X being forward compatible is intriguing since for it's time it's very powerful machine.
 
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see colon

All Ham & No Potatos
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Probably it's much more difficult to cost reduce an old architecture than to design a low cost new one. That said I'm in team Lockhart isn't coming out, at least I hope not. But the idea of One X being forward compatible is intriguing since for it's time it's very powerful machine.
It might come out after the Series X launch. Year one sales are all "hardcore" consumers anyway, and launching the "most powerful" console to capture the hearts and minds and then, in a year or more, release a low cost alternative. This is basically what Nintendo did with Switch Lite and 2DS.
 

RedVi

Regular
If they wait 2 years then a 'Pro' model slotting in above the Series X, coupled with a revision/price drop on the Series X would make more sense. This would of course depend on 5nm and GDDR6 prices at the time. 2 years probably is a bit soon.
 

see colon

All Ham & No Potatos
Veteran
If they wait 2 years then a 'Pro' model slotting in above the Series X, coupled with a revision/price drop on the Series X would make more sense. This would of course depend on 5nm and GDDR6 prices at the time. 2 years probably is a bit soon.
What if they launch Lockhart and a Super Series X and phase out the vanilla model
 

eastmen

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My range assumes One S All Digital Edition at the $149 point and Series X at the $499 point so SADE ($149), One S ($199), One X ($299), Series ? ($399), Series X ($499).

That is a helluva sku count to deal with so I could certainly imagine them eliminating some skus and from a "placing" perspective it's insane. I think market realities will be different post-pandemic than we've ever seen before in terms of retail (I'm in Chicago so I'm speaking solely of the US). I expect Gamestop to be gone or in liquidation leaving the much larger box stores like Best Buy which can absorb larger inventories (not suggesting they want to) to be the "only" places you will find the consoles and the platform holders will shift to digital ordering that's obviously difficult for huge swaths of the population (especially cash only persons) but retail is going to continue to shrink. I say all of that to say that sku counts might be excessive right now but over the generation and a (slow) move to online (e.g. I can order hardware from my xbox dashboard) it may not matter too much and there's a marketing piece that could say, "Jump into the Xbox ecosystem for only $149 and 200+ Free Games*" *Gamepass subscription required

I'm team XSX or just Series X, not a fan of the SeX nomenclature

By the end of the year there will be Series S and Series X and the only xbox ones left will be unsold sock in random places.
The prices of the Series line up will directly depend on sony's launch price. $250/$500 if sony goes at $500 and $200/$400 if Sony goes for $400.

MS will make sure that first party games run on the one for another 2 years but will end up being 720p i bet.
 

Rangers

Legend
By the end of the year there will be Series S and Series X and the only xbox ones left will be unsold sock in random places.
The prices of the Series line up will directly depend on sony's launch price. $250/$500 if sony goes at $500 and $200/$400 if Sony goes for $400.

MS will make sure that first party games run on the one for another 2 years but will end up being 720p i bet.


You really think Series S is coming this year when we havent heard a peep about it from MS??? I dont. We know Series X is coming, because they've publicized that since December.

Personally I believe they are in great position right now as is and should scrap Lockhart.
 

TheAlSpark

Moderator
Moderator
Legend
Lockhart might be a good thing to have considering the state of the economy, but then maybe the only people left alive in November are the ones who can afford higher price points anyway.

>_>

Excuse me.
 

eastmen

Legend
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You really think Series S is coming this year when we havent heard a peep about it from MS??? I dont. We know Series X is coming, because they've publicized that since December.

Personally I believe they are in great position right now as is and should scrap Lockhart.

A 1080p to 1440p console that displays games with the same graphical features of the series x but half the cost. I could imagine MS even giving away in a Game Pass Ultimate + hardware deal where you guy 4 or 5 years of non discounted Game pass ultimate and you get the series s for free or a certain discount off series x. There is a huge market of people who want better consoles and will want the games to look as they do on the series x and ps5 but don't want to spend that money. Instead of having them sit on the side lines for 2-3 years as prices drop they can jump in almost instantly.

MS drops the majority of their stuff with almost no notice. Look how they announced the surface book or the surface go. The reason why they announced the series X so early is because its their flagship.

Also the xbox one s and ps4 aren't getting priced reduced anymore if you notice, they are still $300 even the all digital s is $250. I believe it will be alot cheaper to produce the Series S than the one x and most likely it will be close to parity with the price. With 10m people in the usa going on unemployment within 2 weeks and Disney just furloughing all park and store employees there are going to be alot more people that can Series S than Series X.

At Christmas mom and day may not be able to buy a $400-$500 ps5 or XSX but hey this XSS can run the majority of the games avalible and for most people they will look pretty similar.
 

Xbat

Veteran
These people on Twitter come across as being so fake and desperate for attention it's ridiculous. Why share that message other than to try and get more exposure.
Not saying sending a message like that is ok but come on it could be a ten year old, this is what happens when you open yourself up to getting anonymous interaction.

Social media is such a toilet.

Back to the topic I very much doubt Lockhart is coming out this year or if ever really. The only news we got about it was devs weren't happy about it, I think Digital Foundry reported something along those lines.

The only way I see Lockhart happening is if XSX is over $500.
 
A 1080p to 1440p console that displays games with the same graphical features of the series x but half the cost. I could imagine MS even giving away in a Game Pass Ultimate + hardware deal where you guy 4 or 5 years of non discounted Game pass ultimate and you get the series s for free or a certain discount off series x. There is a huge market of people who want better consoles and will want the games to look as they do on the series x and ps5 but don't want to spend that money. Instead of having them sit on the side lines for 2-3 years as prices drop they can jump in almost instantly.

I dont think you would get all the graphical features, all the time with a scaled back console. Don't a lot of raytracing features rely on random sampling / monte carlo methods, etc?, my understanding is that a certain point these features breakdown and are no longer graphically viable as they look at bit janky.
 

Jay

Veteran
Does anyone know if their is some virtual address space limit of ~100GB to the GPU? I've seen a couple references to that figure, and not sure if that supposed to be an actual limit, or example of package size. Seems like a limit and so I wonder what happens in cases where the game package is >100GB.
Be interesting to know what modern AAA next gen games are expected to weigh in at. De duped, 4k assets etc.

If there is a limit of 100 GB then I would expected some form of paging would need to be employed, maybe implemented by the dev.
Not saying sending a message like that is ok but come on it could be a ten year old, this is what happens when you open yourself up to getting anonymous interaction.
but probably a 30+ year old

Back to the topic I very much doubt Lockhart is coming out this year or if ever really. The only news we got about it was devs weren't happy about it, I think Digital Foundry reported something along those lines.
Just because MS is making sure to be focused on the xsx, it being the halo product I wouldn't read to much into things being quiet.

There was potentially some details that came out in last couple days that could support your view that it might not come out this year though, probably next.

For me it makes even more sense given the state people's money may be in by the end of the year.

We've heard some moaning from devs, but I'm unsure how much that's just 1 dev, now in echo chamber for example.
In the end if there is a Lockhart I think devs will get over any issues they have with it pretty quickly and just get on with it.

I agree with your point about price, the lower xsx and ps5 comes in under $500 the more pressure it puts on Lockhart being a profitable cost effective device. $450 I think MS starts to reevaluate bringing it to market.
 
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Rangers

Legend
Be interesting to know what modern AAA next gen games are expected to weigh in at. De duped, 4k assets etc.

If there is a limit of 100 GB then I would expected some form of paging would need to be employed, maybe implemented by the dev.
but probably a 30+ year old


Just because MS is making sure to be focused on the xsx, it being the halo product I wouldn't read to much into things being quiet.

There was potentially some details that came out in last couple days that could support your view that it might not come out this year though, probably next.

For me it makes even more sense given the state people's money may be in by the end of the year.

We've heard some moaning from devs, but I'm unsure how much that's just 1 dev, now in echo chamber for example.
In the end if there is a Lockhart I think devs will get over any issues they have with it pretty quickly and just get on with it.

I agree with your point about price, the lower xsx and ps5 comes in under $500 the more pressure it puts on Lockhart being a profitable cost effective device. $450 I think MS starts to reevaluate bringing it to market.


I think Lockhart has the potential to be extremely dangerous to MS's current (IMO, winning, with XSX's powerful specifications and likely similar pricing to PS5) hand they currently hold.

There is no need or use for it, scrap it.

The idea that it's a 1080P machine doesn't hold water, because one of the first thing devs are going to do is push XSX below 4k in pursuit of visuals. So what then, Lockhart is a 720P machine? Yuck. Besides that, I dont want my XSX constrained by being able to just run lockhart games at a higher res, the way my One X is constrained by being only able to run One games at a higher res.

Or, I could be wrong, LOL.
 

Shifty Geezer

uber-Troll!
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Your going to have to give me some examples where the base Xbox is holding back the 1X.
How can he when those games don't exist?

It's not limited to run games at just higher res, and if that's all it does then what makes you think it could do better?
What effects, rendering techniques, gameplay mechanics?
the same next-gen can bring only to lesser extent. So, target 1080p on 1X in an exclusives and use the additional compute and RAM to power complex fluid-dynamic and materials based environmental manipulation. Or something.

I've seen it said, and never an example given.
No-one can realistically predict what a new piece of hardware can do. Game designers get new hardware and experiment and find what opportunities it presents. All we know now is what tech exists that isn't used in games, that perhaps might make it in.

Don't forget it needs to render at a reasonable resolution for what it was sold as (4k machine), so above 1080p min
Ah, but now you're limiting it to a specific purpose, but Ranger's point is that if it wasn't constrained to just being X1 at 4K, it could bring something new to the table. And that's the issue with a potential Lockhart. If Lockhart is the 1080p machine and XB1X is the 4K machine, XB1X will never bring its power to bare on lower resolution, bigger scope games, just as XB1X will never bring its bower to bare on 1080p, bigger scope games. Of course, there's likely no viable market for such an XB1X exclusive so it's not as if MS is holding it back. But if Lockhart sets the baseline and XBSX can only be a 4K version of that, you'll have the next-gen machine being so constrained. If Lockhart is scaled proportionately, it'll be 3 TFs to XBSX's 12, and maybe 4 cores to XBSX's 8. Multiplayer games will have to work on both, so game design and what's possible in those games will have to target this far lower baseline. XBSX players will get a Halo that's designed for a quarter-pint console and just get a bit more resolution and framerate.

Whether that's materially something any gamer could notice or not, we'll probably never know. You could only evaluate the difference in a parallel universe, to see five years in, what impact the lower-tier console had. However, on paper there is clearly some amount of impact, and it's unprecedented in the console space.
 

Jay

Veteran
How can he when those games don't exist?
Don't see why not, must have a view of why he believes it's the case.
the same next-gen can bring only to lesser extent. So, target 1080p on 1X in an exclusives and use the additional compute and RAM to power complex fluid-dynamic and materials based environmental manipulation. Or something.
He was saying how nasty basically sub 1080p is, so don't see how 1080p is exceptable for a high end console.
Ah, but now you're limiting it to a specific purpose, but Ranger's point is that if it wasn't constrained to just being X1 at 4K, it could bring something new to the table
It was made and sold as a 4k machine, and given his everson to lower resolution I think it's fair to say above 1080p min, and even that was generous.

There's been many games that wasn't 4k on the 1x. So it already has to drop resolution.
Many things that are gpu bound can be scaled without having adverse affect on gameplay and artistic vision of the team.
The 1X was designed, made and sold to run 1X games, just with higher resolution and better visual quality/effects, better framerates. And it does all that very well.

So this view that we would have some sort of different experience without the base Xbox doesn't hold up too well. (Especially with the lower sales that they have, but that's a secondary point)

Regarding next gen, if Lockhart has to run some games at 900p later on so be it, most core gamers wouldn't find it exceptable but it's not aimed at them anyway.
For the bedroom, kids, secondary console, students, cash strapped gamers, I'm sure they'll be fine to live with it.

Sony seem to be going the single console route, so there are options, and I think that's what it's about, options, and MS just doing what Sony does won't help them in the long run, especially if both consoles are expensive ($500).
They will both sell well in the start but ps5 will be able to maintain sales better than xsx, unless Sony seriously mess up.
Which could very easily lead to xsx loosing momentum with no kinnect to take out of the box.

I'm sure there's some corner, maybe even edge cases where Lockhart could potentially hold it back, but given 3P is multi platform, 1P supports PC, I can't see many situations where it would be a huge ball and chain. Graphics engines are going to be made to scale more than ever before.
 

Xbat

Veteran
I'm sure there's some corner, maybe even edge cases where Lockhart could potentially hold it back, but given 3P is multi platform, 1P supports PC, I can't see many situations where it would be a huge ball and chain. Graphics engines are going to be made to scale more than ever before.

First party is where it will hold them back most. I know people say yeah but first party games don't matter but I disagree.
If the next Halo or Gears of War looks worse than Sony's first party games it will set a narrative which will diminish having the most powerful console amongst the mainstream gamers.

It's also why I feel XSX not having a launch game made exclusively for it is a mistake, I mean what's the point of releasing the most powerful console and there's nothing to showcase it at launch.
 
First party is where it will hold them back most. I know people say yeah but first party games don't matter but I disagree.
If the next Halo or Gears of War looks worse than Sony's first party games it will set a narrative which will diminish having the most powerful console amongst the mainstream gamers.

It's also why I feel XSX not having a launch game made exclusively for it is a mistake, I mean what's the point of releasing the most powerful console and there's nothing to showcase it at launch.

DIsagree. Every game on both consoles for the first 1-2 years at least will be using an engine that wasn't developed specifically for the next gen consoles. Just because they all had to start development before there was even hardware for the next gen consoles.

So, they'll all generally be using engines created for current gen consoles and modified to take advantage of next gen consoles.

Even if that wasn't a factor, people still hugely underestimate how far you can scale things back in order for it to run on weaker hardware.

Games already regularly enable or disable features based on whether hardware can or cannot support those features. If consoles weren't the limiting factor when it comes to games, we'd see far more scaling in games just like we did back in the late 90's early 2000's.

Console gamers obviously never got to see the massive amounts of scaling that were possible. And even PC gamers for the most part haven't as consoles have limited the scale of games ever since the PS3/X360 era. Prior to that PC game developers could still push things far beyond what consoles could do yet still scale them back to PC hardware that was far weaker than console hardware. Hell, Q2 and Unreal had both a hardware (3D hardware accelerated) and software (CPU) renderer to allow them to scale across a wide range of hardware. And that wasn't uncommon back then.

Just look at Sebbbi's game or iD's games or The Witcher 3. They all specifically targeted current generation consoles, but with a little bit of work can run perfectly fine on the NSW. Hell, Sebbbi was sure that his game wouldn't be able to run on the NSW due to the reliance on physics modeling. But he was still able to make it work once he tried.

Regards,
SB
 
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dobwal

Legend
I have serious doubts that lockhart is just some low end next gen console. Why would MS do all this work on BC and then release a console 6-12 months from now thats not going to be naturally compatible with the current Series X library at lockharts release. What is MS going to do pay all the devs to patch their titles? And if lockhart was already a part of the current xbox dev environment, why havent any devs made a peep about this scenario?
 
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