Microsoft Game Stack Live [2021-04-20 and 21]

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by BRiT, Feb 22, 2021.

  1. DmitryKo

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    These were initial versions 2.0, 3.0 and (cancelled) 4.0 from 1995-1996, which were designed primarily with software rendering in mind. No-one used them because 3dfx Voodoo Graphics cards appeared in the same timefreame, and most game developers focused on Glide and MiniGL/OpenGL instead. Direct3D 5.0 DrawPrimitive was (re)designed in-house to follow the OpenGL model used by actual 3D hardware, with no input from RenderMorphics team. Direct3D 7 with hardware T&L was largely a different API. There was also Microsoft Talisman, an incompatible API designed to offer huge savings in memory bandwidth on supporting hardware, and the aborted 'Fahrenheit Low-Level' which was supposed to unite Direct3D and OpenGL.

    None of the above explains how Direct3D didn't have to be "tied into the Windows OS", whatever that means.
     
    #21 DmitryKo, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  2. zed

    zed
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    tied == coupling

    mate as you yourself said, d3d12 was tied/coupled to the windows OS, and now you claim MS are untying/decoupling it, i.e. which proves it was not absolutely necessarily needed in the first place, like I said this is similar to whjat they did with InternetExplorer and the windows OS back in the late 90s (I think) where they started putting/coupling/tying it unnecessarily into the OS as a method to stifle the opposition.

    And yes ppl/companies did use d3d version 3 back in the day, prolly used about as much as opengl or glide (my thoughts are it was actually used more than either of those, we certainly used it (using it has been burnt into my mind), but would have to dig further for stats)
     
  3. DmitryKo

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    Decouple specific version of Direct3D runtime (d3d12.dll) from the specific OS version, i.e. to make recent runtimes compatible with previous builds of the same OS.

    As I said, it requires aditional development/testing resources, while offering limited feature support and performance. Look at Direct3D12 on Windows 7, a lot of people were asking for it but nobody actually used it when Microsoft and GPU vendors made it available.

    I don't see the parallels. Internet Explorer made its proprietary MSHTML engine available to Windows programs through a well-documented API, and both Microsoft and 3rd party applications were using it, so it wasn't entirely 'unnecessary'. Anyway that's user-mode application library, not a display driver framework which depends on very specific kernel mode components.

    Also the OpenGL model required the hardware vendor to implement the entire API even when hardware didn't support some features. This was fine for Silicon Graphics' IRIS GL which ran on proprietary hardware, but Microsoft didn't make their own graphics chips or complete end systems, so they would need to hand control over essential component of the OS to 3rd parties.

    No, there are very few such games, mostly shareware racing titles. Only two proper 3D accelerator cards were widely available by late 1996, S3 ViRGE (Diamond Stealth3D) and Rendition Verite V1000 (Creative 3D Blaster), which ran at measly 20-25 fps. OTOH, Voodoo Graphics ran at 60+ fps and used 'multi-texturing' which was only supported in Glide at the time, so 3dfx came to dominate the entire year 1997.
     
    #23 DmitryKo, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
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  4. zed

    zed
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    Oh yes very nice of them ... except the courts didnt think so https://skeptric.com/embrace-extend-extinguish/

    thats true (though was not fully adhered to IIRC), often it could just be that feature X was supported in software

    Try a more thorough site not just some dude on a forum eg https://www.pcgamingwiki.com
    counting games up to and including 1997 OK glide was a bit more but theres more d3d 3 games than opengl.

    d3d 26 (only counting d3d 2-3 thus d3d5 titles from 1997 not counted so no starwars, riven, dungeon keeper, mortal combat 4, tomb raider 2 etc though if I also include all d3d games from 1997 and before its > 60, i.e. nearly double glides number )
    glide 34
    opengl 15

    Also not sure about glide dominating 1997, OK quality it may of done but this is more like personal opinion, in shear numbers it didnt

    glide games from 1997

    Dreams to Reality
    Extreme Assault
    Time Warriors
    V-Rally Multiplayer Championship Edition
    POD: Planet of Death
    Interstate '76
    Outlaws
    Need for Speed II
    Star Wars: X - Wing vs. TIE Fighter
    MDK
    Shadow Warrior (1997)
    Blood
    Screamer Rally
    FIFA: Road to World Cup 98
    Frogger (1997)
    Incubation: Time Is Running Out
    Test Drive 4
    Myth: The Fallen Lords
    Actua Soccer 2
    Nuclear Strike
    Sub Culture
    CART Precision Racing
    Croc: Legend of the Gobbos
    Turok: Dinosaur Hunter


    D3D games from 1997

    Adidas Power Soccer
    Alien Cabal
    Dreams to Reality
    International Rally Championship
    POD: Planet of Death
    Cyberswine
    Sonic & Knuckles Collection
    Outlaws
    Sentient
    Shivers Two: Harvest of Souls
    Star Wars: X - Wing vs. TIE Fighter
    MDK
    FIFA: Road to World Cup 98
    Dungeon Keeper
    Atomic Bomberman
    Dark Reign: The Future of War
    Moto Racer
    Claw
    Resident Evil
    Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire
    7th Legion
    Frogger (1997)
    Incubation: Time Is Running Out
    Star Wars: Jedi Knight - Dark Forces II
    Mortal Kombat 4
    Fighting Force
    Riven
    NetStorm - Islands At War
    Actua Soccer 2
    Daytona USA: Deluxe
    Nuclear Strike
    Overboard!
    Premier Manager 98
    CART Precision Racing
    Croc: Legend of the Gobbos
    Final Liberation: Warhammer Epic 40,000
    G-Police
    Kick Off 98
    Virtua Fighter 2
    World League Basketball
    Tomb Raider II
    Virtua Cop 2
    Turok: Dinosaur Hunter
    Virus: The Game[/QUOTE]
     
  5. DmitryKo

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    Again, most of these are using Direct3D 5+ DrawPrimitive - not Direct3D 3.0 and Execute Buffers.

    Games in these early days of 3D were often developed for a custom software renderer, then updated with regular game patches to support multiple hardware rendering APIs, so an early Direct3D game would end up supporting Glide, OpenGL/MiniGL, and Direct3D 5-7.

    Also most of these 'shareware' games weren't up to AAA titles like Descent, Quake, Need for Speed etc., which made quite an impact by providing better visual quality and higher framerates running on Voodoo Graphics cards and their Glide / MiniGL drivers.

    These stats are not thoroughly verified and include recent digital distribution re-issues; my own memory serves me better.

    https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_DirectX_2-7_games
    https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_OpenGL_games
    https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Glide_games

    You should also cross-check for games which support multiple APIs.

    Rather one particular federal judge presiding over Microsoft antitrust case.
     
    #25 DmitryKo, Apr 10, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
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  6. DmitryKo

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    The videos of the pre-recorded sessions are available on the Microsoft Game Stack channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/c/MSFTGameStack/playlists?view=50&sort=dd&shelf_id=1


    In particular, the Xbox Velocity Architecture session includes a very nice real-time demo, showcasing how Sampler Feedback works in conjunction with Tiled Resources and DirectStorage streaming, which enables massive memory / bandwidth savings and ensures very smooth camera transitions.
    Xbox Velocity Architecture: Faster Game Asset Streaming and Minimal Load Times for Games of Any Size - YouTube



    Blog/news posts:

    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dire...edback-some-useful-once-hidden-data-unlocked/

    https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/07/14/a-closer-look-at-xbox-velocity-architecture/

    https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/directx-12-ultimate-for-holiday-2020/
     
    #26 DmitryKo, Apr 21, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
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  7. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    question, versus typical VT and even Tiled Resources: don't they also break the mips into smaller tiles as well? Isn't sampler feedback providing very clearly to the developer which tiles are in view and which aren't (which is an algorithm challenge)
     
  8. DmitryKo

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    Tile size is fixed at 64 KBytes, since it needs to fit exactly into multiples of GPUMMU physical page size (either 4 or 64 Kbytes) for virtual memory paging to work. Thus tile dimensions depend on bits per pixel or lossy texure compression format used, and multisample count (for render targets).

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/direct3d11/how-a-tiled-resource-s-area-is-tiled
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...xture2d-and-texture2darray-subresource-tiling
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/direct3d11/mipmap-packing
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/direct3d12/volume-tiled-resources
    https://blogs.windows.com/windowsex...rces-enables-optimized-pc-gaming-experiences/
     
    #28 DmitryKo, Apr 21, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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