PlayStation suite
- Thread starter eastmen
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PS3/PC/iOS/Android cross-platform multiplayer achieved in Dungeon Defenders:
http://www.joystiq.com/2011/03/02/ps3-pc-ios-android-cross-platform-multiplayer-achieved-in-dungeo/
Sony should talk more about how Playstation Network can interoperate with third parties (Steam, GameSpy Open, Open Feint, etc.).
http://www.joystiq.com/2011/03/02/ps3-pc-ios-android-cross-platform-multiplayer-achieved-in-dungeo/
Sony should talk more about how Playstation Network can interoperate with third parties (Steam, GameSpy Open, Open Feint, etc.).
Havok physics engine comes to Android 2.3, demoed on Xperia Play (video):
http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/05/havok-physics-engine-comes-to-android-2-3-demoed-on-xperia-play/
Playstation Suite may need something unique at the user level to differentiate from the base Android OS (or iOS).
http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/05/havok-physics-engine-comes-to-android-2-3-demoed-on-xperia-play/
Playstation Suite may need something unique at the user level to differentiate from the base Android OS (or iOS).
PlayStation games coming to Tegra smartphones and tablets this year:
http://androidandme.com/2011/03/news/playstation-games-coming-to-tegra-devices/
Apparently, PS2 games are also coming...
http://androidandme.com/2011/03/news/playstation-games-coming-to-tegra-devices/
Apparently, PS2 games are also coming...
That must be reengineered titles like the GOW and ICO collections. Don't expect much on there.
jeff_rigby
Banned
We haven't discussed non-game features of the Sony ecosystem which PS suite will use for applications.
I've done some research during my sabbatical and some of the PS3 Webkit research brought out some interesting possibilities. Message 477
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Interesting. One facet of this is that if Sony decides to get out of the hardware console business, they are laying the groundwork for being a multiplatform Software publisher like Sega.
Regards,
SB
Regards,
SB
jeff_rigby
Banned
It surprised me that they invented/started DLNA but MS was first on the Xbox360 to support it, invented/sponsored Collada as a format for game asset storage, were part of Ultraviolet, and multiple other open source industry initiatives or standards committees .
Amazing really all they have invested in open source. With the PS3 and PS Suite it appears as if they were waiting for the industry to mature so they could realize their vision. Along the way in the last 10 years they have been sponsoring and releasing open source software to help the industry grow into their vision.
When you move from the PC world with DLNA and try to setup the same thing for a friend with a Mac you realize there is somehow a big hole. There is no official support for it with Apple, unless I'm just not familiar with it.
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technology/technology/theme/dlna_01.html
And of course PS Suite will be used to port applications to control plug and play network connected hardware in the home. A minor role but one that will support the value of an ecosystem to the non-gamers who buy the living room TV.
Best Sony Open Source Quote
And yes, it looks like they can now profit by being a publisher. Sony appears clumsy to outsiders like me, stumbling and slow to release new features for the PS3 but when you really dig, they have a hand in much of the innovation. 2011 - 2012 might have us re-evaluate our opinion of Sony's corporate vision.
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jeff_rigby
Banned
Sorry, slightly off topic, I posted here by mistake but think it's relevant. Cairo is going to be used by Sony on the PS3 and NGP and PS Suite will probably have Cairo as a major player in a cross platform GUI for applications. Many of the webkit ports are now entirely using Cairo for their graphics.
Sony can go the:
1) Android OS or Chrome OS route and build their own desktop
2) or they can use GTK+3 and use it for Webkit and to build their own custom front end like the various flavors of Linux do. Gnome is a Linux desktop built using the GTK toolkit that is now totally based on Cairo.
In either case Cairo is the basic building block.
IF GTK+3 is used then there are multiple open source Linux applications that can be easily ported to the PS3 & NGP. With a do it yourself desktop the core logic of applications can be used but the entire GUI would need to be rewritten. The PS3 and certainly the NGP have the power and memory to do either case. Remember the PS3 did have full blown Linux support. An abbreviated custom theme desktop and OS with much of the not needed Linux kernel functionality stripped out should be snappier than what we had. With Cario properly OpenGL (or PSGL) supported, drawing should be equal to high end PC Linux. Closed platform Linux for multi-media, a Sony flavor of Linux.....
Why would they do the work to redesign the XMB?
And with Cairo supported XMB and GTK+ in the PS3, it's more a matter of cut and paste from existing Open Source libraries by a Linux guy ,Geoff Levand, the guy in charge of the webkit port to the PS3.
The XMB or something like it can be the default desktop with user config options. Overlay applications are possible for any user choice or version for the XMB.
Hold for PS4, why? 2011 is going to see stiff competition from Xbox360 MS with Windows7 and Silverlight5 and as mentioned in the ecosystem wars article, Sony needs applications that show the value of their platforms. What's the easy way to provide them, either choice above. And how can Sony differentiate it'self, it's starting this ecosystem with much more powerful hardware than Google started with Android, so why use the choices Google did and downgrade your OS to fit least common denominator hardware. That is the advantage of a game console or closed platform ecosystem, the hardware choices are choices, least common denominator hardware is not an issue....play up to your strengths.
Sony can go the:
1) Android OS or Chrome OS route and build their own desktop
2) or they can use GTK+3 and use it for Webkit and to build their own custom front end like the various flavors of Linux do. Gnome is a Linux desktop built using the GTK toolkit that is now totally based on Cairo.
In either case Cairo is the basic building block.
IF GTK+3 is used then there are multiple open source Linux applications that can be easily ported to the PS3 & NGP. With a do it yourself desktop the core logic of applications can be used but the entire GUI would need to be rewritten. The PS3 and certainly the NGP have the power and memory to do either case. Remember the PS3 did have full blown Linux support. An abbreviated custom theme desktop and OS with much of the not needed Linux kernel functionality stripped out should be snappier than what we had. With Cario properly OpenGL (or PSGL) supported, drawing should be equal to high end PC Linux. Closed platform Linux for multi-media, a Sony flavor of Linux.....
Why would they do the work to redesign the XMB?
And with Cairo supported XMB and GTK+ in the PS3, it's more a matter of cut and paste from existing Open Source libraries by a Linux guy ,Geoff Levand, the guy in charge of the webkit port to the PS3.
The XMB or something like it can be the default desktop with user config options. Overlay applications are possible for any user choice or version for the XMB.
Hold for PS4, why? 2011 is going to see stiff competition from Xbox360 MS with Windows7 and Silverlight5 and as mentioned in the ecosystem wars article, Sony needs applications that show the value of their platforms. What's the easy way to provide them, either choice above. And how can Sony differentiate it'self, it's starting this ecosystem with much more powerful hardware than Google started with Android, so why use the choices Google did and downgrade your OS to fit least common denominator hardware. That is the advantage of a game console or closed platform ecosystem, the hardware choices are choices, least common denominator hardware is not an issue....play up to your strengths.
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Why do you have only one topic of conversation, and no matter what thread you post in it's always about how Sony will be porting these open standards to PS3? You are already discussing this in the PS3 XMB update thread of yours, having already said exactly the same in the HTML5 thread. There's no need to say the same arguments in an NGP thread when the content is no different. I checked the thread title before hitting the Post Reply button and was surprised to see this was a PSS thread, not your XMB thread!
We get the argument! Repeating it adding more and more loosely related links doesn't change the fact Sony haven't announced anything like, or indicated anything like, a complete PS3 revamp nor an open NGP frontend. NGP itself isn't Android, which would have been the most obvious open platform to support if PSS is getting an Android flavour and Sony wanted an open platform. It hasn't been described as supporting any desktop apps or widgets. For all the speculation, the simplest observations show Sony aren't chasing this vision. and certainly whether Sony goes Cairo whatnot in NGP and PS3 has squat to do with PSS as a cross-platform development environment! Anyone looking in this thread should be seeing references to examples and quotes and demos regarding PSS adoption and implementation, and not speculation on how PSS on NGP means Sony are reworking their entire frontend engines to go Webkit.
We get the argument! Repeating it adding more and more loosely related links doesn't change the fact Sony haven't announced anything like, or indicated anything like, a complete PS3 revamp nor an open NGP frontend. NGP itself isn't Android, which would have been the most obvious open platform to support if PSS is getting an Android flavour and Sony wanted an open platform. It hasn't been described as supporting any desktop apps or widgets. For all the speculation, the simplest observations show Sony aren't chasing this vision. and certainly whether Sony goes Cairo whatnot in NGP and PS3 has squat to do with PSS as a cross-platform development environment! Anyone looking in this thread should be seeing references to examples and quotes and demos regarding PSS adoption and implementation, and not speculation on how PSS on NGP means Sony are reworking their entire frontend engines to go Webkit.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You have had an impact on my reasoning behind this and to use your arguments, PS Suite is not about open source as in FREE applications, it's about cross platform as in Open source standards allowing cross platform native language applications. I don't mean to imply an open platform either; you convinced me, native language and closed platform.
Cairo does have a place in PS Suite as do other GUI tool standards that might become a part of the Sony ecosystem and PS Suite, this includes webkit. This is the reason Cairo was chosen for the webkit port and it's mentioned in the Snap developer site. Pointing out as examples the two ways Cairo could also be used to create the NGP front end and how the XMB could possibly be rewritten using Cairo I believe is relevant and on topic.
"Cairo whatnot" and "libraries I've never heard of" give me the impression that I need to provide examples.
You are correct, going beyond that into a hoped for description of a closed platform Linux flavor desktop XMB is off topic.
PS suite will be used by Sony to port "included" free applications between platforms to show off the Sony ecosystem. A source for those is probably going to be Open source Linux. Mentioning how those could be ported given the two desktop or toolkit examples is also what I consider on-topic.
As Patsu has mentioned, there needs to be an easy to use and standardized UI theme on Sony platforms. Google has shown us with Google TV what not to do. This is going to be a big part of recommendations from Sony for PS Suite applications to various platforms. UI Theme should be a part of PS Suite also.
There is no black and white on-topic off-topic in many posts.
The best post in this thread is yours:
You only missed mentioning the NGP which at the time we didn't know was not an Android OS platform.
Your statement: "If PS4, or the PS hardware family including CE devices, goes Android, it'd be a good symbiosis for the two companies." I might have agreed with at the time but after more research; Android, according to multiple articles, is currently a clumsy OS designed for less powerful platforms and is not a good fit with a multi-media ecosystem . The efforts by Google to update Android with versions 2.3 and 3.0 for games (NDK) are allowing platform developers to port Cairo and Gstreamer to Android to support the more powerful hardware. Reasons mentioned by Google for not porting these libraries is they are not full open source, they are Gnu license but Google uses webkit which is GNU? This also impacts PS Suite - Android multi-media and applications.
The thrust of your post was, I believe, the same as the ecosystem war post; more first party applications and games are needed via a PS Suite channel.
from my post above:
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Have you a quote from Sony or similar that PSS is Cairo based?
jeff_rigby
Banned
I have a GDC 2011 slide that NGP and PS3 are going to use the same libraries.
A quote that the PS3 is going to use Cairo for the webkit port.
The Snap developer program lists Cairo evolving over time to support Collada (game assets) and Gstreamer.
An understanding of whats happening with webkit and Firefox and reading.
Cario is a more powerful accelerated SVG library of calls than the Android Skia and Gstreamer is a more powerful multi media library than Android's Open Core.
Firefox uses Cairo and Gstreamer so that it can be easily ported to multiple platforms. Opera uses Gstreamer for the same reason but their own SVG I guess for speed. There were issues with Cairo and shader support a year ago.
I suspect that the NGP & PS3 GUI - desktop and applications will be Cairo based. Lectures at the last EU linux conference mentioned Gstreamer porting to Android platforms to support the multi-media. Links are in the HTML5 thread.
Also look at the last post in the Will the XMB desktop be browser based thread. GTK+3 Cairo based applications can run inside a Cairo based browser like Firefox, either as remote desktop or applications called from inside the browser. The effort to have an easy cross platform Webkit using Cairo and cross platform toolkit based on Cairo is also as a byproduct allowing applications to run on Cairo supported surfaces like desktops and browsers.
Also Quote that Ecosytem hardware platforms require SVG graphics, UIs will be designed with SVG graphics to easily PORT between differing resolutions and size screens.
Cairo port to Android https://github.com/anoek/android-cairo
Gstreamer to Android: http://labs.embinux.org/index.php/Android_For_OMAP3_with_Gstreamer_Integration
http://groups.google.com/group/openarmlab/browse_thread/thread/a963f563d6cdf52b
Texas Instruments is porting Gstreamer to Android to support it's chipset. Why would TI do that if they didn't feel it was needed?
http://code.google.com/p/rowboat/
Same for Cairo and Android, anyone considering Android beyond handsets (anything with advanced multi-media chipsets including 2011 Handhelds) There are many discussions and posts for Cairo and Gstreamer ports to Android.
Is that enough?
I suspect that 2011 Android platforms with the hardware performance of the Sony S1 or NGP will have killer front ends and advanced multi-media using Cairo and Gstreamer. Platforms that can output 720P video over HDMI will probably have Gstreamer for the multi-media. This was in the Gstreamer lecture.
As to PS Suite for PS1 games, there is no need for either Cairo or Gstreamer. Could they be used/required it's possible. Will the game have Gstreamer or Cairo support as includes...possible even probable. For the NGP virtual reality (Camera shows parking lot with dinosaur overlay), it's a perfect example of a Gstreamer - Cairo application.
Edit: Cairo contains Skia code, I don't know how much and the reasons for it's inclusion in Cairo may be for compatibility.
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No! You're just presenting more tentative links. What has TI porting Gstreamer got to do with Sony's choices for NGP, other than the general market state? There's a far easier investigation that can be made. If Sony are releasing a unified front for NGP and PS3, they'd be telling us about it. They'd be saying, "NGP will feature app compatibility with the new PS3 experience launching alongside NGP this year. This revolutionary upgrade to PS3 wil allow blah blah blah." It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for Sony to have this unified new engine that you're tooting, and yet to be telling absolutely no-one. Hence pretty much all your evidence comes from what everyone else is doing. firefox uses such-and-such. TI are doing this and that. Opera uses widdle-de-dee, and Cairo's being ported to Android.
Which has abosultely squat to do wiih NGP as a non Android device, and squat to do with PSS because, if NGP has all these systems you're talking about, Sony wouldn't need to create PSS! Furthermore a killer frontend can be written in any flippin' language and doesn't need Gstreamer or Cairo, although tusing these may be beneficial. But Sony could go friggin' UE3 for its frontends. They're just libraries of functions for common tasksm, with varying degrees of optimisation and cross-platform support. Sony have seen a need to create their own cross-platform media engine in the guise of PSS, instead of using all these other systems!
jeff_rigby
Banned
There is a serious misunderstanding here. Neither are an engine, it's "C" compatibility and both Gstreamer and Cairo are being used in CE, Embedded, Linux and Android platforms. There is talk of porting to iOS also.
Why, because they were designed to be modular and EASY to port to multiple platforms and give exactly the same result no matter what platform they run on. With Cairo and Gstreamer support on a platform webkit is easily portable to that platform with fewer resources being used. The same is now true for the GTK3 based toolkit and applications written with that toolkit. Cairo (in this case) is an upper level library of OpenGL C calls compiled to native language on the target platform and API callable by native language compiled "C" or javascript, Lua, Python etc.
The timing of the firmware 3.5 HTML5 javascript engine which has API hooks to cairo and the Lua Home client upgrade a few weeks later that uses fewer resources but adds allot of shader functions (fog, snow, shadows etc) makes me believe that Cairo is in the PS3 now. It's typical of upper level language libraries resulting in smaller application sizes; another reason for using Cairo.
"They're just libraries of functions for common tasksm, with varying degrees of optimisation and cross-platform support. " Yes they could use some other library of functions but SONY has told us they are going to use Cairo, Gstreamer and objective C in the Snap developer site. Objective C because the programmer is forced to manage resources in a resource limited platform. Cairo and Gstreamer because they are open source standards accepted and used by the CE and Embedded community.
Is there some reason why you don't believe the Sony Snap developer site information is accurate?
When I get information from two different Sony sources that Cairo will be used by the PS3 and NGP I tend to believe the source.
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SNAP -
A research project that's been put on hold. You're using that as a basis to believe that Sony are developing a new PS3 XMB and NGP interface on based on the gtrahpics libraries of GTK+ and Cairo, etc., and...tell me again what the @#£&*this has to do with PSS development? Are people wanting to code PSS apps supposed to be famliarising themselves with GTK+ and Cairo or something?
jeff_rigby
Banned
GTK+ no, that was an example.
Apparently SNAP is no longer on hold or will soon not be on hold and no longer experimental, you accessed the wrong page.
http://snap.sonydeveloper.com/about/ The home page still says on -hold but the other pages have been updated and contain allot of information I still haven't accessed.
EDIT:
snap.sonydeveloper
COLLADA is an open source standard file format for game assets.
"re-architected display model and backend based on Cairo evolving toward supporting COLLADA"
The above is a BIG statement, re-architected means they are going to change the way they display from what they use now to Cairo based. Back end means low level PSGL, so the basic backbone for graphics used on Sony products will be built on the upper level Cairo rather than low level GPU calls. And they expect that upper level Cairo to evolve to support the feature set needed by games.
PSGL is not OpenGL and Cairo may be a way to standardize graphics/GPU calls by supporting Cairo with Sony developed PSGL. The end result is Cairo on any platform be it PSGL supported or OpenGL or DirectX will produce the same results. PS Suite may use Cairo.
The Snap Developer program uses GNUstep derived open source libraries. Cairo is GNUstep and has been evolving with OpenGL as it evolved. It has now, as of January 2011, been released as a stable library. The GNUstep GUI toolkit is X11 based but the industry is moving to Cairo based GUI toolkits (GTK3 is an example) because they are scaleable Vector Graphics and with OpenGL or PSGL as a backend to Cairo, a Cairo supported webkit, Gstreamer binding with Cairo, Cairo/Pongo fonts and all graphics calls with the upper level Cairo results in an efficient total package for resource limited platforms. Now re-read message #135 above.
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I hope Sony will release Playstation Suite with stellar titles right off the batt. LOCOROCO and PATAPON could be a launch title, and it's very suited for smartphone or tablet touchscreen and motion sensing control scheme. And it's not that graphic intensive. It could be a hit like Angry Birds, and will create a lot of buzz for the Suite.
LocoRoco and Patapon are the type of games that should be released on the PS Suite. Creative and Addictive. Casual gaming at its best.
I forgot Echochrome.
LocoRoco and Patapon are the type of games that should be released on the PS Suite. Creative and Addictive. Casual gaming at its best.
I forgot Echochrome.
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