Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[Jay]

I Imagine, that should it be there, esram will still be useful, it's just no longer the primary form of bandwidth. Developers will certainly find ways to leverage esram if they are bandwidth constrained.

yea, I was more wondering what it could be used for as i expect the standard memory pool bandwidth to be fast enough in general(when not running in xo compatibility mode).

example, intermediate shadow rendering buffer, gpu use it as lds
guess would need pretty knowledgeable people to be able to come up with uses though.

 

[turkey]

Hypervisor is an emulator you mean ? HV seems more like the manager of virtual machines. It handles creation, suspension and breakdown of VMs. Not sure if it's responsible for more than that.

The hypervisor takes the system resources and presents virtual hardware to the guest. I do not believe it has to present the same hardware to the guest some some "emulation" is I assume part of it. Exactly how much it alters in usual life is unknown, but I assume in Xbox hardware changes through the life of the console are absorbed here.

Semi related link to a hypervisor named emulator

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/QEMU

Was hoping some more knowledgeable folks would come and add more or shoot me down.

 

[iroboto]

The hypervisor takes the system resources and presents virtual hardware to the guest. I do not believe it has to present the same hardware to the guest some some "emulation" is I assume part of it. Exactly how much it alters in usual life is unknown, but I assume in Xbox hardware changes through the life of the console are absorbed here.

Semi related link to a hypervisor named emulator

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/QEMU

Was hoping some more knowledgeable folks would come and add more or shoot me down.

This makes sense to me. So you're suggesting that a change to the hypervisor would be all that is required to perform emulation on Scorpio for OG XBO games?

 

[mrcorbo]

For Scorpio to include ESRAM, either that 320Gb/s figure they have given:

• Includes the ESRAM bandwidth - So, the 12GB of GDDR5 on a 384-bit interface that would perfectly fit that amount of bandwidth and nicely matches up to the concept render is not what's in Scorpio.
• Doesn't include the ESRAM bandwidth - which means that one of only three concrete specs Microsoft have given out about Scorpio was wrong.

Do either of those possibilities seem likely?

 

[iroboto]

For Scorpio to include ESRAM, either that 320Gb/s figure they have given:

• Includes the ESRAM bandwidth - So, the 12GB of GDDR5 on a 384-bit interface that would perfectly fit that amount of bandwidth and nicely matches up to the concept render is not what's in Scorpio.
• Doesn't include the ESRAM bandwidth - which means that one of only three concrete specs Microsoft have given out about Scorpio was wrong.

Do either of those possibilities seem likely?

If the case, the second is likely the case, but I don't lean this way. It's unlikely.

I think what we've hit on is that:
There is esram and there is no physical esram.
Without confusing myself more, I think I mean that the hardware has been customized (stated by MS) and there is an esram memory controller, but it leverages the 12GB DDR instead.
So when it receives a call for esram, it's present, the hardware knows what to do, but instead of the controller placing it in esram, it's got some nifty tricks on dividing that 8x4 MB space into its 12GB DDR chips, and still manage to maintain its 1024 bits read and write, 7/8 RW cycles, and 192/204 GB/s bandwidth.

 

[Jay]

at that point they may just emulate it all in software is my guess.

I don't consider the marketing mock up render to be definitive to be honest.
I hope/expect it to have at least 12gb but I wouldn't bet my house on it based on the mock up. Could argue that they knew people would work out memory amount so why didn't they just say? Where as they gave bandwidth which you wouldn't be able to work out. Saying 12gb would've been just as impressive.

IF Scorpio did include esram then I suspect that it doesn't include it in the bandwidth figure. But they wouldn't be lying either way.
reason I think it may not include it, is if it's not developer accessible unless running in compatibility mode.
if it was used by system as a lds for example.

I'm not arguing for esram, I'm just saying I can see why they could still include it, if things like contention was an emulation issue.

 

[Rikimaru]

So when it receives a call for esram, it's present, the hardware knows what to do, but instead of the controller placing it in esram, it's got some nifty tricks on dividing that 8x4 MB space into its 12GB DDR chips, and still manage to maintain its 1024 bits read and write, 7/8 RW cycles, and 192/204 GB/s bandwidth.

You can not emulate ESRAM latency anyway.
I think they'll just remap ESRAM addresses to RAM.

 

[Pixel]

Albert Panello pretty much spilled the fact it has a 384bit memory interface. So no ESRAM.

 

[eastmen]

For Scorpio to include ESRAM, either that 320Gb/s figure they have given:

• Includes the ESRAM bandwidth - So, the 12GB of GDDR5 on a 384-bit interface that would perfectly fit that amount of bandwidth and nicely matches up to the concept render is not what's in Scorpio.
• Doesn't include the ESRAM bandwidth - which means that one of only three concrete specs Microsoft have given out about Scorpio was wrong.

Do either of those possibilities seem likely?

What about possibility 3 .

ESRAM and its bandwidth will be an announcement at a later date.

I have no clue if it will make it in , but they could simply add the esram number at a later date. I am sure on 14/16nm or lower the 64megs of ESRAM will barely take up space compared to how it was on 28nm .

 

[AlNom]

384-bit DDR4 + scratchpad = 200GiB/s with DDR4-4266 + 120GB/s SRAM (937MHz @ 1024-bit)

alkfdjapoibhpoaihpa8r0923049u2ornhkljfnapuihyvg9p8ay340814orhq3lifuhaiopb8y9q8by9paiohjk2nrkl1jbe4o2grf978haoivgfbaejkfbhlwejbf

but why

asldfjasiodfjp023r9poijflaksd

nop

 

[Pixel]

384-bit DDR4 + scratchpad = 200GiB/s with DDR4-4266 + 120GB/s SRAM (937MHz @ 1024-bit)

alkfdjapoibhpoaihpa8r0923049u2ornhkljfnapuihyvg9p8ay340814orhq3lifuhaiopb8y9q8by9paiohjk2nrkl1jbe4o2grf978haoivgfbaejkfbhlwejbf

And its a 128Mbyte scratch pad right? cuz a 32Mbyte scratchpad would fuck with all developers targeting 4K. They could only assemble 1 quarter to 1/5th of the screen in the 32Mbyte scratchpad.

 

[AlNom]

pizza

 

[Jay]

And its a 128Mbyte scratch pad right? cuz a 32Mbyte scratchpad would fuck with all developers targeting 4K. They could only assemble 1 quarter to 1/5th of the screen in the 32Mbyte scratchpad.

it wouldn't be used the way it is on xo, that would be for xo compatibility. When not in that mode, could just be used by the system like a cache.
to be clear, the only reason I'm talking about the possibility of esram is if it's not possible to emulate it with the given bandwidth that they have given.
and what it could be used for if it had to be added.
as in normal mode it may not be under dev control, it wouldn't be added to the bandwidth figure they gave out. Same way don't give out every single bit of bandwidth in a system added together.
or is it a fact that emulating it wouldn't be a problem?

 

[Osamar]

If I am not wrong Xbox One does not has an L3 cache.
So what was a wild thought pointing at a 32 mb L3 cache for Scorpio, now seems to me a good solution for an hybrid soft/hardware emulation.
It could be possible to "trick" the cache to act like esram in Xbox One mode.

 

[RobertR1]

Do you guys think Scorpio can deliver Forza Horizon intro level graphics in game? Is that realistic?

I've been playing the Horizon demo and you can certainly see a drop in PQ once you take the controls.

 

[Pixel]

What about possibility 3 .

ESRAM and its bandwidth will be an announcement at a later date.

I have no clue if it will make it in , but they could simply add the esram number at a later date. I am sure on 14/16nm or lower the 64megs of ESRAM will barely take up space compared to how it was on 28nm .

Albert Penello basically let it slip that there was 384bit memory interface. First off lets start with Penellos background and education, and proclaimed skillsets and work experience.
According to his Linkn he has education in board room meeting presentations and marketing. Zero/zilch/nada formal education revolving around computer programming/engineering/or anything touching on electronics or computer micro architecture.
Decades of experience in marketing and management.

Back in 2013 Albert Penello got some of the Xbox One specs mixed up in an interview, he later apologized for that.

Now in 2016 again Albert Penello said that Scorpio has 384GB/s memory bandwidth in the Eurogamer article. Eurogamer later corrected this stating that Penello had given Eurogamer the wrong specs.
Where would he get 384 from, and why would he have that specific number in his head???
How could 384 have been mixed up with 320GB/s?
Its obvious he was getting memory interface mixed up with memory bandwidth. They are both around the 300ish number and Penello being high up exec probably has alot of responsibilities he has to divide his attention to and didn't have time to refresh his memory on all the specs.

 

[iroboto]

Albert Penello basically let it slip that there was 384bit memory interface. First off lets start with Penellos background and education, and proclaimed skillsets and work experience.
According to his Linkn he has education in board room meeting presentations and marketing. Zero/zilch/nada formal education revolving around computer programming/engineering/or anything touching on electronics or computer micro architecture.
Decades of experience in marketing and management.

Back in 2013 Albert Penello got some of the Xbox One specs mixed up in an interview, he later apologized for that.

Now in 2016 again Albert Penello said that Scorpio has 384GB/s memory bandwidth in the Eurogamer article. Eurogamer later corrected this stating that Penello had given Eurogamer the wrong specs.
Where would he get 384 from, and why would he have that specific number in his head???
How could 384 have been mixed up with 320GB/s?
Its obvious he was getting memory interface mixed up with memory bandwidth. They are both around the 300ish number and Penello being high up exec probably has alot of responsibilities he has to divide his attention to and didn't have time to refresh his memory on all the specs.

Which spec are you trying to narrow down here ? The capacity of memory or the bandwidth ?

 

[Pixel]

Which spec are you trying to narrow down here ? The capacity of memory or the bandwidth ?

Neither, I'm just jumping into an ongoing discussion on the memory interface. The memory interface is almost certainly 384bit wide.

 

[mpg1]

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/1...rpio-due-in-a-year-how-much-could-it-cost.htm

I'd be little bit disappointed if it ends up at $499....because that will almost certainly mean $599 CAD price point.

But I have sat out this generation so it should be worth it.

 

[iroboto]

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/1...rpio-due-in-a-year-how-much-could-it-cost.htm

I'd be little bit disappointed if it ends up at $499....because that will almost certainly mean $599 CAD price point.

But I have sat out this generation so it should be worth it.

Microsoft store is selling XBO S for dirt cheap today.

https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/co...blue_special_edition/?st=IW0NXW50&sh=11fc63ad


If you can't wait that's the deal to get!