Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[iroboto]

I get what you are saying but what has me confused is the way Spencer worded "It’s nothing like Xbox 360 backwards compatibility right now — there’s a lot of technical wizardry involved in that. We didn’t want to have to do that again."

Isn't 360 BC software based? If you doing a software based compatibility again for XBO on Scorpio why would you word it like that?

The only thing I can figure is he is referring to having to essentially run the entire Xbox 360 OS on Xbox One hardware just to get games to work. Maybe that is what he is referring to by "do that again".

Edit: But still this doesn't answer how easily 360 BC will translate to Scoprio? Or how to emulate esram?

Right, I understand where you are going now. It's important to note that PS4 Pro's solution is not the only solution that is available to perform hardware backwards compatibility; It may just be the one that made the most sense for their needs and targets. MS's hardware compatibility can be developed entirely differently to meet their requirements and needs.

It will be interesting to see how MS tackles BC compared to how Sony is.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I think it's a matter of perfect compatibility and good enough. Not having per title hacks in OS is a huge plus for maintaining code.
Windows is known to have a lot of "not a bug but a feature" to maintain compatibility.

That's most a feature of a changing OS and keeping the OS as compatible as possible with past programs.

That shouldn't apply to XBO as each game runs in its own self contained VM. IE - no matter what version of Xbox a game is run on going forwards from XBO, the game will be running in the same OS as when it was made. Unlike Windows where games going forward are always running on the newest version of an OS.

Or to put it another way, if you have a Windows XP game that has quirks due to running on Windows 10, those quirks instantly disappear if you run the game in Windows XP. Changes in hardware have little to no impact on that.

Hence, on Xbox the VM ensures that the OS the game was designed on is always the OS the game runs in. That was quite likely a design choice guided by Microsoft's desire for compatibility with future consoles as well as lessons learned in Windows about how compatibility is affected by changes in the OS.

Regards,
SB

 

[Rikimaru]

Or to put it another way, if you have a Windows XP game that has quirks due to running on Windows 10, those quirks instantly disappear if you run the game in Windows XP. Changes in hardware have little to no impact on that.

Regards,
SB

But you can not install clear XP on SATA drive for example. Old OS expects ESRAM and specific hardware bugs in CPU and GPU.

yea, I think that they won't be going for those kind of hacks though.
by having a thin layer between game and hardware I think it will help them moving forward.
that and good dev guidelines.

Devs break rules in shipped games all the time.

 

[Jay]

But you can not install clear XP on SATA drive for example. Old OS expects ESRAM and specific hardware bugs in CPU and GPU.

Devs break rules in shipped games all the time.

they sure do, that's the benefit of the abstraction that they have in place, even more than there was on x360.
the sort of low level access that they used to have isn't there any more.

the 4pro used a whole different gpu and that didn't break the games. I'm sure there's a lot more differences between that than trying to emulate the esram(once got correct performance profile) if that's the route they go.

 

[Osamar]

Microsoft could like to ask AMD for a semi-custom Zen with 32Mb of L3 to solve the esram question

 

[Jay]

Microsoft could like to ask AMD for a semi-custom Zen with 32Mb of L3 to solve the esram question

May not be all that crazy haha

Emulating it on the general memory pool has many issues to overcome even if latency isn't an issue.

Remove esram bandwidth from total (as it is constantly used), minus cpu overhead that it could take up, may not leave that much left in enough situations to make it workable.

I think one of the reasons they went esram was due to the foundary they used.
Could they move to edram or something now, and would there be other benefits in doing so.

 

[AlNom]

Could they move to edram or something now, and would there be other benefits in doing so.

Doesn't seem that viable. IBM has 14nm SOI eDRAM for Power 9, and Intel's Crystalwell is still in the 22nm gen. TSMC doesn't appear to have updated their page on eDRAM since the 40nm gen.

 

[iroboto]

If the goal is to not have any patches or software changes within the OS to address older titles, Scorpio will need at least he components or XBO IMO. Hard to emulate esram without emulation software.

 

[AzBat]

Someone on Reddit didn't like how PS4Pro handles graphics settings & made this concept for Scorpio...

http://i.imgur.com/4I6h1zn.gifv

https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/5dnj94/concept_i_dont_like_how_ps4_pro_handles_graphics/

I like it.

Edit: Uploading GIFs suck on the phone. Grrr. Wished work didn't block this site last week.

Tommy McClain

 

[turkey]

If the goal is to not have any patches or software changes within the OS to address older titles, Scorpio will need at least he components or XBO IMO. Hard to emulate esram without emulation software.

Is that not in part what a hypervisor is?

 

[Jay]

Doesn't seem that viable. IBM has 14nm SOI eDRAM for Power 9, and Intel's Crystalwell is still in the 22nm gen. TSMC doesn't appear to have updated their page on eDRAM since the 40nm gen.

is that the only options esram and edram?

how useful would it be if it wasn't being used for bc, as a scratchpad / lds / l4 (shaders feeding shaders etc), and would that cause 'Issues' moving onto the next machine for games that used it.
I would assume not, as by then would have hbm.
anything they do would have to be done with the future in mind.

 

[iroboto]

Is that not in part what a hypervisor is?

Hypervisor is an emulator you mean ? HV seems more like the manager of virtual machines. It handles creation, suspension and breakdown of VMs. Not sure if it's responsible for more than that.

 

[mpg1]

is that the only options esram and edram?

how useful would it be if it wasn't being used for bc, as a scratchpad / lds / l4 (shaders feeding shaders etc), and would that cause 'Issues' moving onto the next machine for games that used it.
I would assume not, as by then would have hbm.
anything they do would have to be done with the future in mind.

I mean if Microsoft thinks a hypothetical Scoprio 2 would have the hardware (hbm2/3) to emulate esram effectively then I don't really see what the problem is of them putting in a hardware solution (32MB esram/edram) in Scorpio now just to hold over...

This iteration/generation (Scorpio) will probably have to act as a transition between Xbox 360/One memory system and future Xbox memory systems.

Has it been discussed of whether 12GB GDDR5 at 320GB/s bandwidth would be able to emulate it effectively without issue?

 

[mpg1]

Someone on Reddit didn't like how PS4Pro handles graphics settings & made this concept for Scorpio...

http://i.imgur.com/4I6h1zn.gifv

https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/5dnj94/concept_i_dont_like_how_ps4_pro_handles_graphics/

I like it.

Edit: Uploading GIFs suck on the phone. Grrr. Wished work didn't block this site last week.

Tommy McClain

I really don't see Microsoft allowing advanced settings on Scoprio. I've heard Phil Spencer say many times that there are things he likes about consoles over PC...something along the line of "it's simplier/just works".

 

[Jay]

I mean if Microsoft thinks a hypothetical Scoprio 2 would have the hardware (hbm2/3) to emulate esram effectively then I don't really see what the problem is of them putting in a hardware solution (32MB esram/edram) in Scorpio now just to hold over...

This iteration/generation (Scorpio) will probably have to act as a transition between Xbox 360/One memory system and future Xbox memory systems.

Has it been discussed of whether 12GB GDDR5 at 320GB/s bandwidth would be able to emulate it effectively without issue?

yea, that was my point that hbm should be able to emulate it with little problem, so shouldn't be an issue.
was thinking if did go hardware route what else could that memory be used for when not doing bc.
could it give Scorpio a nice little boost where there otherwise wouldn't be. Or would it just be wasted silicon when not doing bc

I think emulating it wouldn't be that hard, no one has really said latency would end up being a huge problem. As far as we know anyway.

I do wonder about how the system would perform due to issues like contention. Where on xo there is none at all etc.
maybe like latency it could be hidden due to the overall higher speed of the system as a whole.

 

[mpg1]

was thinking if did go hardware route what else could that memory be used for when not doing bc.
could it give Scorpio a nice little boost where there otherwise wouldn't be. Or would it just be wasted silicon when not doing bc

Then you'd just be furthering the compatibility issues onto next system... I think you have it for compatibility/reliability for Xbox One games (and 360 depending on how that compatibility is working) but you'd want Scorpio games to be shed from using small specialized memory.

 

[Jay]

Then you'd just be furthering the compatibility issues onto next system... I think you have it for compatibility/reliability for Xbox One games (and 360 depending on how that compatibility is working) but you'd want Scorpio games to be shed from using small specialized memory.

that's the thing, I think it's only an issue(if it even is) now because it's shipping before hbm.
after that it's just an allocated bit of memory.
it shouldn't cause any problems, and may give the Scorpio a decent performance to cost boost. Depending on what it can be used for. If it helped keeping the gpu fed and helped with contention.
Scorpio 2 would still need to support the emulation for the games anyway as it needs to support xo.
Scorpio 2 games would be developed with out using the esram/dedicated memory pool emulation, as it would probably be hbm based etc.
if we had huge bandwidth now I wouldn't even entertain it, but I don't see using it as hamstringing future machines.

 

[mpg1]

that's the thing, I think it's only an issue(if it even is) now because it's shipping before hbm.
after that it's just an allocated bit of memory.
it shouldn't cause any problems, and may give the Scorpio a decent performance to cost boost. Depending on what it can be used for. If it helped keeping the gpu fed and helped with contention.
Scorpio 2 would still need to support the emulation for the games anyway as it needs to support xo.
Scorpio 2 games would be developed with out using the esram/dedicated memory pool emulation, as it would probably be hbm based etc.
if we had huge bandwidth now I wouldn't even entertain it, but I don't see using it as hamstringing future machines.

I just think the esram/edram used on Xbox 360/One are legacy things at this point..and any emulation whether hardware based (Scorpio) or software (Scorpio 2+) will just be used to preserve Xbox 360/One games. The trend in development is towards large pools of unified memory.

 

[Jay]

I just think the esram/edram used on Xbox 360/One are legacy things at this point..and any emulation whether hardware based (Scorpio) or software (Scorpio 2+) will just be used to preserve Xbox 360/One games. The trend in development is towards large pools of unified memory.

I agree with much of this, my point is that IF the Scorpio needs esram for bc, then what can it be used for when not running xo compiled games. As it would be a waste if it could help and not used.
going forward, it wouldn't be a big deal as Scorpio 2 would need to emulate it when running xo games anyway.
simply mapping to hbm when running those games.
why waste that silicon if it doesn't pose an issue moving forward, and if it helps the machine?

edit:
doesn't even need to used by devs, could be used for system level local data store, simple 4 level cache type of usage etc

 

[iroboto]

I agree with much of this, my point is that IF the Scorpio needs esram for bc, then what can it be used for when not running xo compiled games. As it would be a waste if it could help and not used.
going forward, it wouldn't be a big deal as Scorpio 2 would need to emulate it when running xo games anyway.
simply mapping to hbm when running those games.
why waste that silicon if it doesn't pose an issue moving forward, and if it helps the machine?

edit:
doesn't even need to used by devs, could be used for system level local data store, simple 4 level cache type of usage etc

I Imagine, that should it be there, esram will still be useful, it's just no longer the primary form of bandwidth. Developers will certainly find ways to leverage esram if they are bandwidth constrained.