Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[-tkf-]

And yet there is no style of gameplay (I'm assuming this is what you mean by games doing something interesting) on current generation of consoles that wasn't done on previous generations of consoles. The only things that have changed is how things look. Whether that be increased graphics, increased physics or world density. All of which is easily scaled or enabled/disabled.

Large crowds have been done since the PS2 (Dynasty Warriors), open worlds have been done for ages, etc. AI has improved very little since the PS2 and almost imperceptibly since the X360/PS3.

What would be a revelation is if we had significant improvements in AI. Yet AI remains mostly as dumb as ever. Horizon while great looking (except little to no splashes or waves in water reacting to the player?) but still features AI that goes bone dead at times (plenty of examples in Strippin's Twitch streams of his full playthrough of HZD). Using HZD as an example, graphically HZD couldn't have been done on a 2009/2010 console without scaling the graphics in some way (which would have had little to no impact on the current gen graphics), however, the gameplay itself would have scaled without change.

Regards,
SB

Whils HZD in many ways doesn't do anything new, i would dare to say that the technical achievement of the graphics engine, the sound, art etc plays a very big part of making the game as good as it is.
In 2009 a scaled back version might have been fantastic, but as a very big fan of Vice City i must admit that the way it looks and plays today i simply cannot get into it, obviously my gamer brain has been schooled to expect much more. And it is more than just graphics, controls and freedom of movement is major part of the new games, i dunno if this requires more power but the improvements in those areas also play a major part in the improvement we see in newer games..

 

[one]

I guess it's the idea that's we've not yet experienced this scale of game, I don't think FP64 is required to be next gen, it's just that this one specifically is.
I don't think current consoles have the power to drive Star Citizen to the developers goals.
It's difficult to describe what next gen is, but if the idea is to define it as 'not possible on current hardware', then Star Citizen seems to fit that bill.

In Star Citizen, is it possible to interact with far objects beyond 32bit distance in realtime within the client camera space? I don't know how it's implemented (is it already in the Lumberyard engine?) but I guess coordinates are translated from 64bit to 32bit segmented space just once then are fed into GPU. It can be some overhead, but not much.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I also don't think ms will mandate the lowest platform that they will have to support either, but that's just my view.

It's risky if they don't. More people buy consoles 2+ years after launch than in the first 24 months and those people are reasonably certain to get a good few years of games. If Microsoft are launching a new platform every 3-4 years but don't mandate support for that hardware once the next hardware launches then buying a console in it's third or forth year after launch becomes a dicey proposition. Buying the cheaper console is even dicier.

Many devs will support the older console but what if the game you really want to play only runs ln the newer console? That's not going to leave a good taste in the mouth.

 

[iroboto]

In Star Citizen, is it possible to interact with far objects beyond 32bit distance in realtime within the client camera space? I don't know how it's implemented (is it already in the Lumberyard engine?) but I guess coordinates are translated from 64bit to 32bit segmented space just once then are fed into GPU. It can be some overhead, but not much.

Not sure how to prove it =(
It looks like you can see things way out there:

Watch 0:06.
See starbase
FF to 12:06
See starbase.

You'll notice the planet in the background never leaves view either.
22:38 shows the zoom out... its impressive at least to me. Not sure if any 32->64 bit thresholds are being crossed.

 

[mosen]

MGS5 often runs at 20fps on PS360 though. And the game runs at sub-720p on PS360 too.

Compared to the PS3 game, the PS4 game felt like a next gen game IMO. The difference was significant.

That was my point. We already had next-gen games on a 10 years old console with some trade-offs. So why should we pretend that a 4 years old console will prevent newer consoles or games to reach their true potential?

 

[chris1515]

That was my point. We already had next-gen games on a 10 years old console with some trade-offs. So why should we pretend that a 4 years old console will prevent newer consoles or games to reach their true potential?

Made the game on Xbox 360 and PS3 was not a Kojima choice... it was a Konami choice. He and his team did some compromise on physics for this.. And the biggest problem was the RAM size..

MGS 5 Ground zeroes was ok for cross gen but for the Phantom Pain Kojima prefered to do a current gen game only. The PS3 version with the split RAM was difficult to made and the Kojima production team is amazed by what Rockstar have done with GTA 5 on PS3...

 

[Deleted member 11852]

That was my point. We already had next-gen games on a 10 years old console with some trade-offs. So why should we pretend that a 4 years old console will prevent newer consoles or games to reach their true potential?

What you call "next-gen" games that were available on 360/PS3 I call cross-gen games.

In coding every programmer will have had faced the problem where what you want to do just can't be done with the resources available to you. It may be with more time you could redesign but you have three other things to deliver and deadlines are looming. It may be with a bit more CPU or GPU power you could do it but other parts of the team cannot surrender their allocation of CPU to GPU to make it happen. This is when having to support less powerful hardware leaves you with hard choices. 4Gb was pretty much the standard minimum memory requirement for so many years but for AA/AAA games it's 6Gb or 8Gb. I

Its impossible to deliver more and more on with the same resources.

 

[mosen]

What you call "next-gen" games that were available on 360/PS3 I call cross-gen games.

In coding every programmer will have had faced the problem where what you want to do just can't be done with the resources available to you. It may be with more time you could redesign but you have three other things to deliver and deadlines are looming. It may be with a bit more CPU or GPU power you could do it but other parts of the team cannot surrender their allocation of CPU to GPU to make it happen. This is when having to support less powerful hardware leaves you with hard choices. 4Gb was pretty much the standard minimum memory requirement for so many years but for AA/AAA games it's 6Gb or 8Gb. I

Its impossible to deliver more and more on with the same resources.

Almost any next-gen game that you can think about could be a cross-gen game IF every developer had time/resources/intention to down port their games for a 10 years old console. Several developers/publishers just did it and they will do it again but at lower cost and with fewer problems from now on. Several publishers/developers down ported their games with 5GB memory requirement to a 10 years old console (with less than 512MB memory available for games) with finite resources. It's nothing like a magical accident.

Microsoft is trying to reduce the price and lowers the barriers in their ecosystem (XB1/Scorpio/W10). They have used x86 alongside Xbox/Windows tools (UWP/DX12/Xbox Live/PIX etc.) to cut a considerable amount of cost & time that publishers/developers had to spend previously to achieve comparable results. Also going from XB1 to Scorpio is nothing like going from 360 to XB1 (even if Scorpio was a 8TF machine).

Microsoft said that every Scorpio game should also run on XB1, too. But as far as I remember they didn't said that developers can't use more advanced game systems/physics/AI etc. on Scorpio.

 

[-Sweeper_]

In addition, Microsoft is also planning to release a new Xbox game console codenamed Project Scorpio and the product is expected to be announced at the E3 2017 event, targeting the year-end holiday season. Sony is expected to release a thinner version of its PlayStation 4.

Microsoft's new game console is expected to feature Ultra HD and mixed reality (MR) support and PC vendors' MR head-mounted display (HMD) devices are expected to be able to connect with the Project Scorpio.

Microsoft's game console is reportedly manufactured by Pegatron Technology and Flextronics and the orders are expected to become a key revenue contributor to Pegatron in the second half. Currently, Pegatron has orders for Apple's next-generation iPhone, Microsoft's new Surface device and game console, and Tesla Model 3's control computer.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20170324PD208.html

 

[sebbbi]

You'll notice the planet in the background never leaves view either.
22:38 shows the zoom out... its impressive at least to me. Not sure if any 32->64 bit thresholds are being crossed.

32 bit float's largest presentable value = 3.40282347E+38. This is HUGE. Distance from earth to sun is 1.496E+11 meters. Much less than 32 bit float maximum presentable number.

Precision at orbit would obviously be very low, but it doesn't matter since that starbase is so far away. The starbase is very small on screen, meaning that even math errors of thousands meters are not visible (vertex position on screen differs less than one pixel). Floating point values are perfect for presenting camera centric screen projected data, as the precision scales down similarly as the size on screen decreases, meaning that you get similar screen space precision at all distances. Obviously when you move the camera, you need to periodically shift the objects to keep the maximum precision area around the player.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Several publishers/developers down ported their games with 5GB memory requirement to a 10 years old console (with less than 512MB memory available for games) with finite resources. It's nothing like a magical accident.

You see that but I see developers building games that would be viable on 360 and PS3 from the outset. I can think of very few games that weren't developed like this and when ported from PC as primary platform to consoles later, didn't result in compromises or were good ports because the original PC target hardware was moderate to begin with.

Crysis made it to 360/PS3 years after it's release on PC with most features attached, some streamlined, some levels removed and noticeable hit on physics. Shadow of Mordor was originally targeting 360 and PS3 and they even had to drop the Nemesis system, the game's defining feature, from the old gen consoles. Dying Light was targeting 360 and PS3 originally but they just couldn't do it and the developers were forced to drop old gen platforms entirely.

Microsoft said that every Scorpio game should also run on XB1, too. But as far as I remember they didn't said that developers can't use more advanced game systems/physics/AI etc. on Scorpio.

Microsoft have said very little overall. Physics scales well with more processing power, but when you start to mess with AI and basic game systems you're doubling the amount of testing and game balancing required. You potentially end up with two games that look the same but play differently. I can't see developers wanting to do this.

 

[sebbbi]

Microsoft have said very little overall. Physics scales well with more processing power, but when you start to mess with AI and basic game systems you're doubling the amount of testing and game balancing required. You potentially end up with two games that look the same but play differently. I can't see developers wanting to do this.

Sony at least requires that PS4 and PS4 Pro players can play against each other in same game sessions. They don't want to split the PS4 community. I would expect Microsoft to do the same. For this to work, you need at least identical multiplayer gameplay. Visuals of course can be much improved.

 

[mosen]

You see that but I see developers building games that would be viable on 360 and PS3 from the outset. I can think of very few games that weren't developed like this and when ported from PC as primary platform to consoles later, didn't result in compromises or were good ports because the original PC target hardware was moderate to begin with.

Crysis made it to 360/PS3 years after it's release on PC with most features attached, some streamlined, some levels removed and noticeable hit on physics. Shadow of Mordor was originally targeting 360 and PS3 and they even had to drop the Nemesis system, the game's defining feature, from the old gen consoles. Dying Light was targeting 360 and PS3 originally but they just couldn't do it and the developers were forced to drop old gen platforms entirely.

That's the nature of developing games. Many developers will start their project with current consoles abilities/install-base in mind and eventually they will change their goals based on newer hardware/technologies after they become aware of platform holders future plan/product. Some of developers chose to make their game only for next-gen (Ryse was one of this games) and many of them will sacrifice something in this process (time, money, resources, some of the game features on one of the current or next gen platform, etc.).

Generationless model (in my mind) isn't against this.

Microsoft have said very little overall. Physics scales well with more processing power, but when you start to mess with AI and basic game systems you're doubling the amount of testing and game balancing required. You potentially end up with two games that look the same but play differently. I can't see developers wanting to do this.

If developers are keen to take advantage of newer technologies/hardware they will develop this systems in advance just like nemesis system that you mentioned earlier.

 

[Rangers]

From the grasping at straws department, Gamestop talked a bit about Scorpio apparently in their financial conference call.
http://www.gamezone.com/news/gamest...ery-gaming-centric-and-gamer-friendly-3452112

GameStop's most recent investor call, Chief Operating Officer, Tony Bartel offered a bit of his thoughts on Project Scorpio and what he's seen of it.

“We[re] impressed with [the] Microsoft Scorpio product," said Bartel. Despite Xbox Head Phil Spencer describing Project Scorpio as a "premium console" for "the premium gaming customer," Bartel believes that Project Scorpio is a “gamer friendly powerful console” that will help drive sales during the holiday season.

Echoing the statements of the Middle-earth: Shadow of War developer on Project Scorpio's ability, Bartel went on to speak on how powerful the console is. “Unfortunately we can’t talk about a lot other than what’s known”, he said. The Scorpio is “a very powerful system that’s really made for 4K”, he added. “We see it [as] a very gaming centric, very, very powerful unit and so we do believe that there will be some great games that are made for this.”

So uhh, it's uhh, powerful. Did we mention it's very powerful?

Also from another article

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/gamestop-talks-switch-supply-problems-in-2017-scor/1100-6448931/

Purchase intent for Switch and Project Scorpio is "at PS4 levels or higher."

 

[ProspectorPete]

Sony at least requires that PS4 and PS4 Pro players can play against each other in same game sessions. They don't want to split the PS4 community. I would expect Microsoft to do the same. For this to work, you need at least identical multiplayer gameplay. Visuals of course can be much improved.

Could scorpio not be hosting the game, calculating physics, hosting more complex AI bots and thus improving it as well for non-scorpio players? Like the power of the cloud, but for real this time.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

That's the nature of developing games. Many developers will start their project with current consoles abilities/install-base in mind and eventually they will change their goals based on newer hardware/technologies after they become aware of platform holders future plan/product.

Isn't this contrary to your point that games run fine on old hardware? I'll agree that games intended to run with a few compromises as possible can be made to run on less powerful hardware with more compromises (every One/PS4 game also running on 360/PS3) but who wants to play compromised experiences?

Some of developers chose to make their game only for next-gen (Ryse was one of this games) and many of them will sacrifice something in this process (time, money, resources, some of the game features on one of the current or next gen platform, etc.).

Ryse was not one of these games, it was announced back in 2011 for Xbox 360. And again, when you look around many of the games on Xbox One and PS4 could have been done on previous gen but with a bunch of compromises. Some games just couldn't, you'd have to change the game so much it would be a different game. I'd say Witcher 3 is a good example.

If developers are keen to take advantage of newer technologies/hardware they will develop this systems in advance just like nemesis system that you mentioned earlier.

And the Nemesis system had to be removed to make the game work on 360 and PS3 so, uhh... what?

Purchase intent for Switch and Project Scorpio is "at PS4 levels or higher."

What is "purchase intent"? It can't be pre-orders for Scorpio because Microsoft haven't opened pre-ordering yet. The Gamespot article was a bit mental; the summary of the call regarding Scorpio was how great PSVR is doing so... SCORPIO. Right!?!

 

[BRiT]

Purchase Intent is how many units GameStop will order to sell. They intend to have the same number of Switch and Scorpio units as PS4 units at a minimum, if not more.

 

[goonergaz]

Purchase Intent is how many units GameStop will order to sell. They intend to have the same number of Switch and Scorpio units as PS4 units at a minimum, if not more.

For launch or beyond?

 

[BRiT]

For launch or beyond?

Not clear to me, so it's hard to tell if this means anything at all, at least from what we can use. There's several different meanings that can be possible. The first difference would be is this a 1 time thing or across a specified time period.

1. GS intends to order the same amount or more of Nintendo Switch during NX launch and MS Scorpio during X12 launch as they ordered for PS4 launch.
2. GS intends to order the same amount or more of Nintendo Switch during NX launch and MS Scorpio during X12 launch as they ordered for PS4 currently (today).
3. GS intends to order the same amount or more of Nintendo Switch and MS Scorpio during their first year as they ordered for PS4 first year.
4. GS intends to order the same amount or more of Nintendo Switch and MS Scorpio during their first year as they ordered for PS4 currently (today).

Magic 8-Ball says "Reply Hazy, Try Again"

 

[wco81]

Could mean MS assured GS how much they plan to advertise and do other promotions.