Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by mpg1, May 25, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AlBran

    AlBran Ferro-Fibrous
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    20,719
    Likes Received:
    5,815
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    How about AF.
     
    Silent_Buddha, egoless, BRiT and 3 others like this.
  2. mosen

    Regular

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    152
    Clarify what? Microsoft said all 1st Party games that launch alongside Scorpio (Only those 1st Party games that launch at that time frame) will have native 4K resolution. At the same time Spencer said this:

    http://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-...ct-scorpio-wont-force-games-use-4k-resolution
     
    RootKit and BRiT like this.
  3. liolio

    liolio Aquoiboniste
    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,723
    Likes Received:
    193
    Location:
    Stateless
    That is the issue with company as big as Microsoft, some of their executive pass what could almost qualified as market distortion as marketing success (sales at huge loss, not clearly presenting acountability to share owners etc.).

    I mean when your vision of gaming and market is either "do it all" or "more", well I think you have an issue, anybody can say that and it does not take a 7 figure salary for sure. There are so many conflicting points in their strategy right now.
    Scorpio launch has to be huge as the XB1 is ~dead in some territories. Meanwhile they can't let the XB1 owners in their strong markets feel let down or cheated... So there is a lower common denominator, it is not too bad till you think... I have to beat the market leader (Sony) which has an one year head start. Imho no matter how I look at it it is not a rosy situation. MSFT was right to not make an anticipated move toward VR (hence not significantly improved model) yet they react in a hurry to Sony's move and are designing a new system. They pass on a complete redesign of the XB1 (to make a Slim or cheaper system) but they are dealing with the pain (software) anyway with the system (Scorpio) they were not planning (related imho to their stance on VR maturity for mass consumption).
    There is clearly no guideline and clear vision about wher ethey are headed, they act like zombie acting on primary impulses. Now they are zonbies with incredible means.

    I think I was right all along with regard to the XB1 slim or refresh as well as VR. MSFT is doing the software magic to have XB1 titles running on a different hardware, they should done that with the "refresh". They should have maintained their stance of VR and not react to sony move (the Pro). Looking at the market dynamics they needed to announce something on top of the proper "refresh" (which we did not get), we all know what that means (usually): announcing that they started working on a new system meant to be release by fall 2018 world wide playing old games better, etc. means to full support VR and 4K etc.
     
    #2943 liolio, Feb 24, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  4. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,578
    Likes Received:
    1,986
    RootKit likes this.
  5. Phil

    Phil wipEout bastard
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    4,785
    Likes Received:
    377
    Location:
    127.0.0.1
    Console games have made more efficient use of their hardware because they didn't have to support N number of hardware varieties. This has always been one of the distinct differences between the PC space and consoles. On consoles, we have been historically used to generational shifts. On PC, people are faced with either having to run their games at lower settings (to the point the game allows it) or be faced with having to buy newer hardware to support the latest releases. The drawback here being that games do not exploit the newest hardware as efficiently and effectively as they could if they were programmed to use that sole hardware to the absolute maximum.

    It's different on consoles. At least if we disregard multiplatform games and focus on exclusive efforts, we know that developers have used everything in that trick book to gain the maximum and push the envelope. Hence why backwards compatibility has been notoriously difficult to accomplish. Multiplatform games are usually less efficient, as they design their games to run on the number of platforms they want to support. At the moment, this has been two, but now things are about to get more complicated as there are now going to be 2 variants of each console.

    There is a reason why PS4 and Xb1 multiplatform games are not that far apart, except for resolution and framerate. If you want to look what a singular hardware can achieve, you need to look at the exclusive content.

    What do you think will happen when Microsoft (and/or Sony) changes their business model to mirror the PC market more with hardware upgrades? We might end up at some point with 3 models being supported at the same time. What about the splitting of the market? How will this compare to a vendor following the traditional model and bringing out a new blank sheet every 7 years and leaves the old behind (except for backwards compatibility)?

    This is merely food for thought.
     
  6. mosen

    Regular

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    152
    I look at FH3 and GoW4 on XB1 and I'm sure that MS 1st Party studios will achieve outstanding results on more powerful consoles. Also On Xbox & Windows 10 there will be only one version of games in future: the UWP version. Taking full advantage of N consoles hardware won't be too much of efforts for developers, if they develop the full version of the same game for W10/UWP at first (choosing the right settings/performance/resolution goal and customize some of their techniques/effects to get better results on different consoles).
     
  7. powdercore

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    29
    I disagree with everything you said. There was absolutely no reason to release a PS4 Pro equivalent. Sony was forced to release the 4Pro early to help address the shortcomings of the PS4 for the PSVR. Compare the graphics fidelity of VR on the PS4 and 4Pro and you can see how GPU power is so important. VR requires a new generation of hardware designed for VR purposes. What do you think a proper release for MS should be if it were released at the same time as the 4Pro?

    1. No point in releasing a me-too product in 2016 with Sony. Look at how deflating the 4Pro reveal was. Sony didn't even mention the 4.2 TF that they were so proud to advertise with the PS4 1.8 TF 178 GB/s of bandwidth.....

    2. The XB1S does very well for a slim version adding a 4K UHD Bluray that Sony sells for $300. Granted it's not enthusiast level but they have essentially brought a 4K UHD Bluray system capable of playing games and media for $249.

    3. MS has said they are waiting on the right time to enter VR. They believe that VR should be wireless with inside-out tracking. No wires. No external cameras. The technology for this is already in HoloLens with silicon developed fully by MS. Xbox is Windows 10 at its heart with built-in Holographs API. That means third party HMD and AR will be part of its ecosystem like Vive and Oculus and other OEMs. Heck they're providing the tech to do inside-out tracking to its OEM. I agree with this strategy. The PSVR was a rushed job. The breakout box can't even pass-through HDR signal. Seriously wth? IMO restricting VR to Scropio is a smart choice as it's a totally different experience in gaming.

    4. MS is building an entire ecosystem Xbox + PC + Windows all running Windows 10 sharing the same UWP and encouraging developers to XPA for cross platform purchases and game play. Forward and backward compatibility. Heck, they have X360 operating system running WITHIN the XB1 operating system using emulation. I don't think software for them is a problem given everything now is Windows 10 on x86.

    5. Their vision is clear: 6 TF, 320 GB/s, 8 Core CPU, 12 GB (rumor) - all to target 4K and VR. You don't do this by "reacting" to Sony and release a product that meet these spec within 12 months from concept to prototype to development to first run to final design to manufacture to release. It's extremely difficult within 12 months.

    6. Why would XB1 owners feel cheated after four years of ownership? I am more inclined to sell the XB1 and get the Scorpio right away if the price is right. XB1S owners shouldn't feel cheated because they were told the same day.

    7. I feel their biggest problems is games. You see these great exclusives so far for PS4 and so far MS has been pretty silent.t. They will need games a lot of them for E3 2017.
     
    Michellstar and mosen like this.
  8. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,706
    Likes Received:
    11,156
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    What are reports on PS4 VR like? Are people saying it's no good and you really need a Pro?
     
    goonergaz and chris1515 like this.
  9. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,972
    Likes Received:
    5,794
    Location:
    London, UK
    PSVR on PS4 is great. PS4Pro offers, in some titles, sharper visuals. There's no other differences that I've noticed.
     
    goonergaz likes this.
  10. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,706
    Likes Received:
    11,156
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    That's the important point. If PSVR on PS4 is great (as I understand it to be) then the whole theory that Pro exists to power VR is debunked ("Sony was forced to release the 4Pro early to help address the shortcomings of the PS4 for the PSVR"). PSVR does not need PS4 Pro, ergo the raison d'être of 4Pro is not VR but a mid gen upgrade - PS4 games with a mild quality improvement. The VR theory should be put to rest at this point.
     
  11. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    12,498
    Likes Received:
    8,701
    Location:
    Cleveland
    I think that still remains to be seen, its still too early in its life cycle, so it still depends on how VR fairs after being on the market for 1 year.
     
    RootKit and egoless like this.
  12. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,706
    Likes Received:
    11,156
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    "Sony was forced to release the 4Pro early to help address the shortcomings of the PS4 for the PSVR"

    There are no shortcomings (certainly not addressed by 4Pro). If in a year's time PS4 isn't strong enough, there'd be room for a PS4 Pro at the end of this year, but there was no need to rush a mid-gen console out the door for VR. I consider that a categorical truth given the evidence (zero reports of unplayable PS4 VR games fixed by using 4Pro). The choice of when and what to launch for a mid-gen refresh would have been based on non-VR criteria. Most likely IMO, the fact that it's the middle of the generation. ;) Leaving it a year later would make it more of a very-early next-gen release. That is, the timeline could be

    Nov 2013 - PS4
    Nov 2016 - PS4 Pro
    Nov 2019 - PS5

    Or, leaving Pro a year later

    Nov 2013 - PS4
    Nov 2017 - PS4 Pro
    Nov 2019 - PS5

    Only two years between Pro and 5? So then 5 gets delayed more

    Nov 2013 - PS4
    Nov 2017 - PS4 Pro
    Nov 2020 - PS5

    That then means PS4 has been on the market 7 years and is a bit long in the tooth. If you want a 6 year cycle, you want a mid gen refresh at 3 years. I'm pretty sure that's what we've got. But whatever Sony's reasoning, VR is definitely not why 4Pro was made.
     
    chris1515 likes this.
  13. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    12,498
    Likes Received:
    8,701
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Im saying it depends on how VR games look in a year, if all of those new VR titles struggle on PS4 but run decently on 4Pro, then 4Pro was needed for VR.
     
  14. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,972
    Likes Received:
    5,794
    Location:
    London, UK
    Do you think they're going to look worse in a year than they do now? When did game visuals ever get worse over time?
     
  15. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,706
    Likes Received:
    11,156
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Why is anyone making a VR game not going to balance it to run on PS4? How many devs dropped support for Sega Megadrive once the 32X released because the Megadrive wasn't powerful enough to create their artistic vision? Games are developed for the lowest common denominator for economic reasons, so every 4Pro VR game is going to play well enough on PS4 to not require a Pro. The only way that'll change is if Sony backtrack on their stance and allow VR games with unstable framerates and such, which isn't going to happen because that'd sour the VR experience and do far too much damage to this nascent market.
     
  16. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,925
    Likes Received:
    1,077
    I think that 4pro was made with vr & mid gen in mind.
    Don't see why it has to be one or the other.
    You will get a reasonable experience on ps4, and obviously a lot better one on 4pro. Kind of an obvious statement.

    Probably some tech in gpu that will help on vr a lot more than just tf boost. Still doesn't mean it was made for vr only though.
     
    BRiT likes this.
  17. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,706
    Likes Received:
    11,156
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Exactly. There have been a few voices suggesting PS4 Pro was created and necessary for Sony's VR plans. That's nonsense because PS4 does just fine without. 4Pro is for anyone wanting to play PS4 games, VR or otherwise, in Better™.
     
  18. goonergaz

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,102
    Likes Received:
    743
    Yep, PS4 is just fine and Pro offers some better visuals (ie Pro is not required nor PS4 inadequate)

    I still wonder if Sony will aim for 2019. When PS4 was released it was already considered under-powered vs previous generations.

    I think Sony (as they said) were actually aiming for gamers (like me) who towards the end of a generation migrate to PC as games start to struggle. It keeps people in the PS brand loop buying PS games giving Sony money.

    As for Scorpio I've jumped out - I'm upgrading my PC with what I can sell my XBOs for as it no longer has exclusives there's no reason to have a box under my TV...I will use a XBO controller and have the PC boot straight into 'big picture' mode.
     
  19. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,706
    Likes Received:
    11,156
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Of course it was. That's because tech progress had slowed down. PS4 was already very late, with PS360 gen being the longest ever. PS5's advance will be similarly less than PS4s, and PS6's will be less again, unless they wait 15 years between generations (or we get a whole new paradigm in technology).
     
  20. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,889
    Likes Received:
    6,170
    This was the choice I also made somewhat last year when I purchased my 1070. Though honestly, still haven't gotten rid of my stuff. As much as I recognize the performance delta, not everything has switched over to PC yet. I dunno, might be a generation or 2 before PC/XBO become a seamless unit. I'm still watching Scorpio to see what my next steps are.

    Though I've been losing a lot of gaming time lately, and it's becoming increasingly easier/entertaining to just do forum posts and pretend to play games.
     
    JPT, egoless, Shifty Geezer and 3 others like this.
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...