Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[KirkSi]

When is Scorpio coming out?

Supposed to be this year and someone suggested that the name suggests the astrological period of the Scorpio sign, so October 23rd to November 21st. Both the XBox One and XBox 360 released on November 22nd though which if they're consistent would actually make it XBox Sagitarius

 

[rabidrabbit]

Supposed to be this year and someone suggested that the name suggests the astrological period of the Scorpio sign, so October 23rd to November 21st. Both the XBox One and XBox 360 released on November 22nd though which if they're consistent would actually make it XBox Sagitarius

Shouldn't that be Xbox Libra according the the new corrected 13 astrology signs that include Ophiuchus.
Sagittarius would be a bit too late for christmas sales, so Virgo, Libra, Scorpius or Ophiuchus. My bet is on Libra.

 

[Phil]

Wow that is a long wait. I wasn't quite aware it was going to take that long...

Will anyone still care about this thing in October-November this year besides existing Xbox owners and those that are potential Xbox customers but haven't yet gotten one? The gap to Sony is increasing with every week (and not because of the Pro) and yet Microsoft still seems to be quite a bit behind. Ever since the botched up launch message, it seems they've been fighting an uphill battle. Now I don't think the Scorpio is bad per say and one thing they certainly got right is that it is on paper clearly the more powerful hardware. I still think this advantage will not show itself because it will be used to push more pixels. We might end up with multiplatform games showing better performance on the Scorpio (mainly better IQ, better framerate) vs the Pro, but none being leaps and bounds better than what their respective base-models can achieve.

Also, I hope they will find a better name for it and that this is just some internal project name....

I personally think Sony hit the point of these mid-generation upgrades on the nail with the "Pro" name. It's simple but to the point. It's the same console, but better. They could have just as well called it the ps4K (which I think is all that it really is - a PS4 able to deliver nearly 4k resolution), but the Pro is a bit more ambiguous and allows them to market the console as one with additional benefits and not just for those who have a 4k display at home.

Regardless - I think this generation has run its course. If Scorpio wants some success, it will have to come with a bang and offer something unseen on any other console. It won't be graphically I assume, for that it is too limited on the existence of the base model. Maybe bundled VR or something. But that is still a hard sell, given their are already games that do that (the new Resident Evil)?

 

[iroboto]

I get the feeling MS is in a bit of jam in regards to the messaging for the Scorpio.

If they go with the same message as Sony are doing with Pro, it's just a "minor" tune up for the hardcore with cash to burn. Then why would/should anybody care more about Scorpio than they did/do for Pro?

If they go with a new generation type of message, then the boost might not be significant enough for people to care.

Looking forward to see how they attack this.

ehh. I have a feeling it's a Yes and No.

Yes, that they are in a jam that it's generally uncharted territory. No, as in they have the advantage of seeing what worked and what didn't work with 4Pro. So effectively they can keep the marketing that Sony did well, and change/alter where they felt Sony didn't do as well. Furthermore, with Sony having a year to explain to the masses what a mid-generation refresh is, MS doesn't have to do as much heavy lifting; Scorpio acts like the second child - the first child often paves the way for an easier life for the second.

 

[mrcorbo]

Wow that is a long wait. I wasn't quite aware it was going to take that long...

Will anyone still care about this thing in October-November this year besides existing Xbox owners and those that are potential Xbox customers but haven't yet gotten one?

The gap to Sony is increasing with every week (and not because of the Pro) and yet Microsoft still seems to be quite a bit behind. Ever since the botched up launch message, it seems they've been fighting an uphill battle. Now I don't think the Scorpio is bad per say and one thing they certainly got right is that it is on paper clearly the more powerful hardware. I still think this advantage will not show itself because it will be used to push more pixels. We might end up with multiplatform games showing better performance on the Scorpio (mainly better IQ, better framerate) vs the Pro, but none being leaps and bounds better than what their respective base-models can achieve.

The fact that it is more powerful will make some people care for sure. The 4.5x TFLOP difference between XBOne and Scorpio will absolutely show as a noticeable difference because it will not only be pushing more pixels those pixels will be also be, for lack of a better term, "prettier".

Also, I hope they will find a better name for it and that this is just some internal project name....

It will. It's a codename. That's why they are calling it "Project Scorpio". But this Scorpio thinks there's nothing wrong with that name.

I personally think Sony hit the point of these mid-generation upgrades on the nail with the "Pro" name. It's simple but to the point. It's the same console, but better. They could have just as well called it the ps4K (which I think is all that it really is - a PS4 able to deliver nearly 4k resolution), but the Pro is a bit more ambiguous and allows them to market the console as one with additional benefits and not just for those who have a 4k display at home.

Regardless - I think this generation has run its course. If Scorpio wants some success, it will have to come with a bang and offer something unseen on any other console. It won't be graphically I assume, for that it is too limited on the existence of the base model. Maybe bundled VR or something. But that is still a hard sell, given their are already games that do that (the new Resident Evil)?

This generation is at most 1/2 way through. It has in no way "run it's course". Whether Scorpio finds success depends on your definition of success. Scorpio will absolutely hang it's hat on what it will be able to achieve graphically (along with VR). That is the one thing that *won't" be held back by being tied to the prior gen.

 

[iroboto]

Will anyone still care about this thing in October-November this year besides existing Xbox owners and those that are potential Xbox customers but haven't yet gotten one

Likely. It's more relevant than just a box to sell. Given the marketing around Scorpio, it should represent a return to form; as in Scorpio's role is to basically wipe away the existence that XBO is, and give MS a restart at this generation. It will be behind, likely this entire generation, but the idea is to stem the bleeding and recreate the whole foundation/vision ground up. It will take a lot of time to be able to produce a similar library to Sony's, so they must focus on hardware, performance, services, and options for their customers until then.

Ever since the botched up launch message, it seems they've been fighting an uphill battle.

Yes

I still think this advantage will not show itself because it will be used to push more pixels.

This is still TBA. It would be extremely naive to assume that FLOPS and bandwidth are the only factors to improved graphical fidelity - they are certainly pivotal for resolution and frame rate though.

 

[JPT]

ehh. I have a feeling it's a Yes and No.

Yes, that they are in a jam that it's generally uncharted territory. No, as in they have the advantage of seeing what worked and what didn't work with 4Pro. So effectively they can keep the marketing that Sony did well, and change/alter where they felt Sony didn't do as well. Furthermore, with Sony having a year to explain to the masses what a mid-generation refresh is, MS doesn't have to do as much heavy lifting; Scorpio acts like the second child - the first child often paves the way for an easier life for the second.

But are they then not just falling in line with Sony, this is the mid-generation refresh, but MS is more powerful than Sony's. Will that be a strong enough and a standout message for MS? And how does the one year later launch impact that?

 

[iroboto]

But are they then not just falling in line with Sony, this is the mid-generation refresh, but MS is more powerful than Sony's. Will that be a strong enough and a standout message for MS? And how does the one year later launch impact that?

Well, imagine you and I are in an obstacle course, we've both never run them before. You go first, and I watch you. Then it's my turn
We are different people, we may do things differently based on our physique, but watching you run the course still gives me an idea of how I could do it differently, what pitfalls to avoid etc.

Do I think they have a marketing problem; I don't. But I'm banking on some heavy assumptions about the underlying technology driving Scorpio. If I were MS, I would not be showcasing resolution and HDR on a live stream, you'd ceratinly talk about it because it's a check box item' but I'd be showcasing visual differences between the two - that would be a pretty strong selling point to have, especially if you had 3P games doing exactly that.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Likely. It's more relevant than just a box to sell. Given the marketing around Scorpio, it should represent a return to form; as in Scorpio's role is to basically wipe away the existence that XBO is, and give MS a restart at this generation.

I'm sure Microsoft wish they could do-over this gen using the benefit of hindsight but Scorpio is going to represent a tiny subset of the Xbox One market for a long time - even if it's wildly successful which I doubt it'll be any more relative to Xbox One than Pro is to PS4. There is no evidence of a significant premium console market for it to appeal to and gobble of market share.

For Scorpio to make a difference relative to PS4/Pro it would need to cut lose it's technology anchor, the Xbox One, and that would likely piss off every Xbox One owner who is not interested in upgrading their console yet. That is the only way to get a "restart".

 

[iroboto]

I'm sure Microsoft wish they could do-over this gen using the benefit of hindsight but Scorpio is going to represent a tiny subset of the Xbox One market for a long time - even if it's wildly successful which I doubt it'll be any more relative to Xbox One than Pro is to PS4. There is no evidence of a significant premium console market for it to appeal to and gobble of market share.

If MS decides to go with rolling generations, which I think it likely from this point on, then Scorpio will eventually become that base model for Xbox, thus by default represents the next foundation/vision for Xbox.

For Scorpio to make a difference relative to PS4/Pro it would need to cut lose it's technology anchor, the Xbox One, and that would likely piss off every Xbox One owner who is not interested in upgrading their console yet. That is the only way to get a "restart".

not true, scaling graphical fidelity should be much easier than scaling game play/design. Most of our discussions about what a next gen game is, is around the latter. I get that. But with PS4 as the lead console, there was never any method in which any console would be able to get away with different design. But that doesn't mean they can't scale graphical fidelity beyond what our current existing systems have.

 

[iroboto]

@DSoup I'm sure you recall this from 2013 And we both finished the game and we both know what it ended up looking like.

or this classic example.

 

[Scott_Arm]

If MS decides to go with rolling generations, which I think it likely from this point on, then Scorpio will eventually become that base model for Xbox, thus by default represents the next foundation/vision for Xbox.

not true, scaling graphical fidelity should be much easier than scaling game play/design. Most of our discussions about what a next gen game is, is around the latter. I get that. But with PS4 as the lead console, there was never any method in which any console would be able to get away with different design. But that doesn't mean they can't scale graphical fidelity beyond what our current existing systems have.

Yah, I don't really understand the scaling concerns. Games already scale from Xbox One to monster Nvidia SLI PCs.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

If MS decides to go with rolling generations, which I think it likely from this point on, then Scorpio will eventually become that base model for Xbox, thus by default represents the next foundation/vision for Xbox.

It probably will. But perhaps not for four years after Scorpio launches, so Holiday 2021? Cool, good times for people buying Scorpio this year.

not true, scaling graphical fidelity should be much easier than scaling game play/design. Most of our discussions about what a next gen game is, is around the latter.

Most of your discussions perhaps. For others scale and complexity are as, if not more, important than a boost to graphical fidelity. Unity's Paris would feel pretty unconvincing if the pedestrians could only be rendered at the same level as AC3. And look at the scale and complexity of the worlds of GTA III San Andreas on PS2 compared to GTA IV on PS3. Or like-for-like GTA V on PS3 versus PS4 and how much busier and more convincing a new generation can make the same game feel.

 

[mpg1]

not true, scaling graphical fidelity should be much easier than scaling game play/design. Most of our discussions about what a next gen game is, is around the latter. I get that. But with PS4 as the lead console, there was never any method in which any console would be able to get away with different design. But that doesn't mean they can't scale graphical fidelity beyond what our current existing systems have.

If Microsoft's only rule is Scoprio can't have exclusives then developers would have a lot of flexibility and could build "nex gen looking versions". If they have a similar rule as PS4 Pro then developers will have to use a lot of the extra grunt for resolution.

 

[iroboto]

If Microsoft's only rule is Scoprio can't have exclusives then developers would have a lot of flexibility and could build "nex gen looking versions". If they have a similar rule as PS4 Pro then developers will have to use a lot of the extra grunt for resolution.

They said no exclusive titles. They didn't say the graphics couldn't scale to more than just resolution.

 

[KirkSi]

For me there was a clear hardware gap between console and PC games from the middle to the end of the 360/PS3 gen that went beyond graphics into gameplay elements. I'm a very keen Battlefield player and there was a massive difference between 360 BF3 and PC BF3. The 360 could only supoprt 12 vs 12 whereas the PC had 32 vs 32. On 360 you could play a map like Caspain Border and if you got 8 kills in a round it was a pretty good one. Xbox One and PS4 gave us parity on the map sizes and player counts that they could support and I don't see a disparity like that creeping in again. If the existing consoles can still provide the same player counts as their PC compatriots then the difference comes down to graphics and frame rate. This is where Scorpio will come in. For those people where graphics matter, but not quite enough to drive them to PC gaming (pretty much describes me) then Scorpio provides me the opportunity to keep up somewhat with PC for a short while (or get closer to at least. In a world with £1000 Titan X cards console will never fully compete with PC, but if it can even keep up somewhat then it's enough for me).

 

[mpg1]

They said no exclusive titles. They didn't say the graphics couldn't scale to more than just resolution.

Right so there's nothing stopping a developer from just going 1080p max details...which I'm guessing would produce a considerable leap over the Xbox One version...

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

Isn't PS4Pro's resolution rule just that it can't be less than 1080p? It doesn't limit the Scorpio if it follows the same rule. The worst case scenario with the Scorpio is that they piss away the extra power on resolution. Maybe Microsoft will insist on this resolution centric focus at first, for "True 4K/uncompressed pixels" marketing purposes, but I think they'll soon settle for simply having the best looking versions of multiplatform titles.

Reports I've read seem to be pretty positive on checkerboard rendering so, to me, it seems most likely that we'll see an abundance of games with a similar resolution to their 4Pro counterpart, but prettier.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Any care to find equivalent guesstimate PC settings to compare what Scorpio might look like versus 4Pro at same res (say 1440p)?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Reports I've read seem to be pretty positive on checkerboard rendering so, to me, it seems most likely that we'll see an abundance of games with a similar resolution to their 4Pro counterpart, but prettier.

Microsoft's self-inflicted problem is they mocked PS4 Pro's checkerboard solution as not "native" 4K yet we know from their own leaked white paper the are also exploring/promoting this for devs having already committed too "Any games we’re making that we’re launching in the Scorpio time frame, we’re making sure they can natively render at 4K."

So well done for creating that PR dilemma, Microsoft. They can waste GPU powerful on native 4K for their own games to meet their commitment or look like dicks for doing exactly what Sony did having mocked them for it.