Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

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Actually if you listen to Phil Spencer here (start at 2:05):

...you get the sense that waiting the extra year was primarily for the GPU spec..nothing mentioned about cpu at all.

Now that you mention it.. If they wanted to advertise the system he could have mentioned the CPU and or 12GB of ram.
However, Phil Spencer is talking about "1K" so it's possible that he doesn't really know what he's talking about.
 
Now that you mention it.. If they wanted to advertise the system he could have mentioned the CPU and or 12GB of ram.
However, Phil Spencer is talking about "1K" so it's possible that he doesn't really know what he's talking about.
What part do you think he doesn't know what he's talking about?
He wouldn't mention 12gb as that's not been released as a spec. 12gb is what people 'think' it will have based on the render, which could easily have been an early mock up etc.
 
Now that you mention it.. If they wanted to advertise the system he could have mentioned the CPU and or 12GB of ram.
However, Phil Spencer is talking about "1K" so it's possible that he doesn't really know what he's talking about.
pretty sure "1K" is referring to 1080p/Xbox One.
 
pretty sure "1K" is referring to 1080p/Xbox One.

That's my point; 1K does not exist, at least not in a way that it refers to 1080P. Unless there is some kind of special 1:1 aspect ratio format which I am not aware of.

Looking at the render again, it is just that; a render; way too small to be an actual Xbox motherboard, compared to the 1 and 1S.
 
That's my point; 1K does not exist, at least not in a way that it refers to 1080P. Unless there is some kind of special 1:1 aspect ratio format which I am not aware of.

4K - 3840
2K - 1920
1K - 1280:runaway:

Looking at the render again, it is just that; a render; way too small to be an actual Xbox motherboard, compared to the 1 and 1S.
Mind you, there are potentially legal ramifications of approving the renders for public consumption, nevermind being fairly elaborate to begin with. I suppose they ought to have placed a disclaimer ("not final" or whatever) if they weren't 101% sure of the physical design/layout.*

*Post editing not final


On the other hand, they did mess up the size (40% shenanigans) render for the Slim. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Given that Scorpio is meant to be a premium product then I think that other aspects of the machine needs to be performant.
I've seen videos of how long it takes for a game to load, and load levels, and as a premium device I would like to see that improved a lot.
Maybe m.2 ssd 64/128gb that stores os, 5 last used games, and 5 last used apps. That would give the overall system a big boost.
Not the whole game, just enough to load the game so say 8Gb per title.

Maybe 5gb available to devs as slow secondary memory, that can be used as hdd cache as they see fit, loading in a level etc.
Api would also work for x1 and pc, as it's not got a performance spec associated with it, it's just slower than ram and faster/equal to hdd.

An decent amount of flash onboard to act as a smart cache for the storage subsystem would be very welcome.
 
SSD smart cache won't help. How many of you launch the same game and the same level all the time? In multiplayer you will wait other players anyway. That's the only use case of smart cache in a console.
 
SSD smart cache won't help. How many of you launch the same game and the same level all the time? In multiplayer you will wait other players anyway. That's the only use case of smart cache in a console.
I'm sure most general people aren't playing more than a few games at the same time. Whatever their telematery tells them.
if the level is handled by the games, when you die and have to reload a level that could be sped up a lot by storing that in 'slow memory', which seems to be a big deal from what I've seen.
so overall performance of machine would be faster.
 
Additionally, while playing a game that isn't in the cache, the initial load would be as long as a mechanical drive. However, where a normal mechanical drive would stop loading in assets after you start playing a game, intelligent caching would continue to fill the cache as you play which should significantly increase the speed of streaming assets (less pop-in), level loads, reloading from death, etc.

That said, I doubt we'll get any significant levels of NAND Flash caching in the Project Scorpio. At least any fast NAND like SATA or PCIE SSDs. However, we could see slower NAND as seen in mobile device. It wouldn't improve sequential read/write much over a standard mechanical drive, but would significantly increase random read/write which is beneficial for games. I still think it would be cost prohibitive however as the cache would need to be at least 64 GB to be able to hold an entire modern console game. Although some games are exceeding 64 GB now, which means 128 GB would be needed if they wanted to be able to cache any single game that might be released. And that would be quite expensive in terms of BOM when paired with a mechanical drive. A system meant to only cache part of a game wouldn't be too bad, as long as the intelligent caching system had a way to know what data might need to be used based on the players location and their travel options.

Of course, that then runs into another issue. Write endurance. With a small drive you are going to be evicting cells and writing new data into them quite a lot faster than you see with consumer SSDs for PC (where hundreds of GBs of information might remain static for months or years), especially considering how it would have to constantly update the cache based on what might need to be loaded in the next few minutes. That would become an issue with a small cache in a console meant to least 4-8 years.

Regards,
SB
 
Additionally, while playing a game that isn't in the cache, the initial load would be as long as a mechanical drive. However, where a normal mechanical drive would stop loading in assets after you start playing a game, intelligent caching would continue to fill the cache as you play which should significantly increase the speed of streaming assets (less pop-in), level loads, reloading from death, etc.

That said, I doubt we'll get any significant levels of NAND Flash caching in the Project Scorpio. At least any fast NAND like SATA or PCIE SSDs. However, we could see slower NAND as seen in mobile device. It wouldn't improve sequential read/write much over a standard mechanical drive, but would significantly increase random read/write which is beneficial for games. I still think it would be cost prohibitive however as the cache would need to be at least 64 GB to be able to hold an entire modern console game. Although some games are exceeding 64 GB now, which means 128 GB would be needed if they wanted to be able to cache any single game that might be released. And that would be quite expensive in terms of BOM when paired with a mechanical drive. A system meant to only cache part of a game wouldn't be too bad, as long as the intelligent caching system had a way to know what data might need to be used based on the players location and their travel options.

Of course, that then runs into another issue. Write endurance. With a small drive you are going to be evicting cells and writing new data into them quite a lot faster than you see with consumer SSDs for PC (where hundreds of GBs of information might remain static for months or years), especially considering how it would have to constantly update the cache based on what might need to be loaded in the next few minutes. That would become an issue with a small cache in a console meant to least 4-8 years.

Regards,
SB

Write endurance on SSDs is apparently less of an issue than generally believed.

I've said this before. I think that addressing the storage bottleneck would create a distinctly better user experience and set the console apart from the competition much more than the power difference will.
 
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wait? is that an official image?

Edit: oh, it is. So we have to wait until E3 to hear more about Scorpio...was hoping for a dedicated event in May...
 
Scorpio doesn't even actually have a shell/case. It's just the board with a giant chip that has "XBOX 4K" on it.
 
SSD smart cache won't help. How many of you launch the same game and the same level all the time? In multiplayer you will wait other players anyway. That's the only use case of smart cache in a console.

I've asked for years that they should just support SSD caching with UASP to give users a way to optionally improve load times depending on their budget and game usage.

Though the current "limited" load time advantages by SSD on a XB1 hint at other bottlenecks(decrypting?,decompression,cpu issues).
 
I've asked for years that they should just support SSD caching with UASP to give users a way to optionally improve load times depending on their budget and game usage.

Though the current "limited" load time advantages by SSD on a XB1 hint at other bottlenecks(decrypting?,decompression,cpu issues).

I'm betting a faster CPU and faster memory coupled with a system designed around always having that faster storage available could show much better results.
 
Write endurance on SSDs is apparently less of an issue than generally believed.

I've said this before. I think that addressing the storage bottleneck would create a distinctly better user experience and set the console apart from the competition much more than the power difference will.

That's going to more closely match what'll happen with a small cache on a console. Relatively low write amplification (but still higher than that in the endurance test at Techreports), but far more sustained writes than a consumer SSD in a given period of time.

However, there are things that must be considered.
  • All those drives have some level of over-provisioning where write leveling algorithms can help to extend the write endurance of a drive. Significant over-provisioning to enhance write endurance will also add to cost.
  • Write endurance is dropping rapidly as NAND moves to smaller nodes. This is ameliorated somewhat by vertical NAND stacks using larger nodes, but that's just a temporary Band-Aid. Which in turn is worsened by the move to TLC NAND.
  • Those are single samples. They could be anywhere from the best to the worst to anything in between examples of a given line of SSDs. A console manufacturer will want to take into account longevity WRT to the worst case scenarios as those would impact X number of consoles in the wild, potentially generation negative press if it happened too soon in the console lifespan and if it was too widespread.
Basically, they'll want something closer to enterprise/data center levels of NAND endurance and stability than consumer levels of NAND. Where quality control is higher and write endurance variability is lower.

One thing to consider is that MS has experience with caching via USB drives. That could be one way they could help users improve things. However, the problem with that is that speed of USB drives runs the gamut from really REALLY bad to pretty good. So it's doubtful they'd go that direction.

Regards,
SB
 
That's going to more closely match what'll happen with a small cache on a console. Relatively low write amplification (but still higher than that in the endurance test at Techreports), but far more sustained writes than a consumer SSD in a given period of time.

However, there are things that must be considered.
  • All those drives have some level of over-provisioning where write leveling algorithms can help to extend the write endurance of a drive. Significant over-provisioning to enhance write endurance will also add to cost.
  • Write endurance is dropping rapidly as NAND moves to smaller nodes. This is ameliorated somewhat by vertical NAND stacks using larger nodes, but that's just a temporary Band-Aid. Which in turn is worsened by the move to TLC NAND.
  • Those are single samples. They could be anywhere from the best to the worst to anything in between examples of a given line of SSDs. A console manufacturer will want to take into account longevity WRT to the worst case scenarios as those would impact X number of consoles in the wild, potentially generation negative press if it happened too soon in the console lifespan and if it was too widespread.
Basically, they'll want something closer to enterprise/data center levels of NAND endurance and stability than consumer levels of NAND. Where quality control is higher and write endurance variability is lower.

Regards,
SB

Sure, but if MS asks a vendor to supply this in this kind of volume, they could probably get it at a pretty good price.
 
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