Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[ProspectorPete]

"TRUE 4K, hi-fidelity VR"

Good luck with that. Shareholders will be on their ass if they don't deliver. Myself included

 

[Jay]

Nobody here believes its 12/3TFLOP, they are being sarcastic

I thought I'd end up looking stupid, but I really couldn't tell.
Especially with the way it was a play on 6tf fp16, fp64 etc lol

Edit - Ok I'm not saying anymore until I'm sure if people are joking or not lol

 

[mosen]

Microsoft and Sony executive policies seem very similar right now, since both Pro and Scorpio are upgrades for PS4 and XB1 respectively and their graphics processing power are fairly similar (if we don't consider RAM, bandwidth and CPU which might be very different). But I don't evaluate Scorpio and Pro in the same way because this companies have different goals. Microsoft cited numerous times that there won't be any console generations going ahead and in contrast, Sony has repeatedly said it has no plan to abandon console generations and even evaluated this model as a positive point.

Sony's goal of making the Pro was to increase PS4 lifespan and decrease users migration to the PC until PS5 releases. But Microsoft's goal of making Scorpio is to create the next main hardware leap in their game console business while their software and accessories support will remain unchanged or in other words, it will experience continuous changes instead of sudden changes due to new hardware/consoles release. This means that PS4Pros services, accessories, games and support is just like PS4 since non of them supposed to be changed, and after PS5 launch both of them (PS4/Pro) will get lower support from Sony (like PS3/360). So we can't say conclusively that PS5 will support PS4/Pro BC or that even it will use same OS or support same accessories.

On the other hand while Scorpio shares all/part of it's features, games, OS and accessories with XB1 in an unknown period of time, it is an standalone console. Its hardware leap over XB1 may not be the size of the previous generations but it should be good for a four-year period and because of this I expect to see similar improvement in it's CPU (compared to XB1). For example I don't expect MS to end Scorpio support alongside XB1, or I don't expect Microsoft to always force developers to target both XB1 and Scorpio in the future. I expect that just a few years from now Microsoft will allow developers to choose hardware (XB1, Scorpio, Scorpio II, etc.) that they want to support independently and according to their own needs just like what happens on PC (Indie/F2P games may target the whole install base while AAA games tend to target the latest and most powerful segment).

Is there anyone who thinks like me?

 

[mpg1]

My "realistic" spec estimate:
8 core Puma (2.4-2.5Ghz) cpu
12GB GDDR5 memory
6TFlop gpu

 

[Scott_Arm]

Here my hope list...

HDMI 2.1 with VRR support on every title.
No bigger than the original XB1.
Maintains the quietness the Xbox one is known for now.
=< $499.00.
a couple of titles including a first party flagship that makes u go "wow!!!"
Controllers with built in mics for voice control

I'm almost tempted to wait on a new console if they don't have hdmi 2.1 w/ VRR.

 

[iroboto]

I'm almost tempted to wait on a new console if they don't have hdmi 2.1 w/ VRR.

this would be a pretty big misstep imo.

 

[AlNom]

Edit - Ok I'm not saying anymore until I'm sure if people are joking or not lol

It's easier when there are smileys or DOA images. Otherwise, I'm not sure why we're wasting time with the ambiguity.

 

[chris1515]

Sony seems to have solve PS4 Pro production problem. I was in a shop for preorder Horizon Zero Dawn.

And I saw the last two PS4 Pro of current batch take by two guys...

But they will receive console every week

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Microsoft and Sony executive policies seem very similar right now, since both Pro and Scorpio are upgrades for PS4 and XB1 respectively and their graphics processing power are fairly similar (if we don't consider RAM, bandwidth and CPU which might be very different). But I don't evaluate Scorpio and Pro in the same way because this companies have different goals. Microsoft cited numerous times that there won't be any console generations going ahead and in contrast, Sony has repeatedly said it has no plan to abandon console generations and even evaluated this model as a positive point.

I'm not so sure that Microsoft and Sony aren't talking about the exact same thing. When Sony have been asked about PS5 and future PlayStation consoles, I think what they are talking about is the traditional order-of-magnitude (or close to it) increase in performance which a new generation brings and which neither Pro or Scorpio offer over the 2013 consoles. I think they are trying to reassure customers that future consoles will come with much bigger upgrades than just resolution bumps.

Nothing Sony has said precludes compatibility and I think Sony would struggle to sell a PlayStation 5 if its going to dump the PS4/Pro games library.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It would certainly behove the conversation if someone provided a quote of Sony saying it's generations as normal with PS5. It's being talked about as fact but I don't recall it being that exact, although I do recall a sense that they were looking at a clean break (option) with PS5.

 

[3dilettante]

It would certainly behove the conversation if someone provided a quote of Sony saying it's generations as normal with PS5. It's being talked about as fact but I don't recall it being that exact, although I do recall a sense that they were looking at a clean break (option) with PS5.

"Generations as normal" would bring up the question of which transition is normal. The PS1 to PS2 had BC, with significant help from shared architectural elements. The PS3 briefly had full BC by including the prior architecture to compensate for the architectural break, then rapidly diminishing capabilities over revisions. The PS4 didn't include the old hardware and a significant architectural break.

The statement I am aware of about there being a clean break wasn't from Cerny.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

But perhaps the biggest takeaway I had from the meeting with Mark Cerny was the insight into how Sony views the console generations. PS4 Pro and Project Scorpio have been seen as the beginning of the end of the jump to a new, more capable wave of hardware in favour of intermediate upgrades. What's clear is that Sony isn't buying into this. Cerny cites incompatibility problems, even moving between x86 CPU and AMD GPU architectures. I came away with the impression that PS5 will be a clean break, an actual generational leap as we know it.

This is one person's impression of the situation, which I am not sure about.
Cerny's emphasis for the Pro as a mid-gen product earlier in the article was that supporting it in parallel with the PS4 was meant to be as low-effort as practical.
A next-gen console could still have compatibility, but no longer promise or require that it and the prior generation can be targeted together with such a low cost.

 

[zupallinere]

I predict Scorpio will have a very easy time besting the PS4 Pro in DF comparisons and have great looking exclusive content. I predict bandwidth will be good enough for whatever is thrown at it for the next 4 years or more.

Geez this prediction stuff is tough work

 

[MrFox]

A few real quotes I could find from Sony's execs...

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...n-boss-andrew-house-ps4-neo-microsoft-scorpio

“I don’t think we’re suggesting with Neo, the conventional console lifecycle is over – I’m certainly not making that statement,” he said. “This is an additional option, it’s a high-end version of a PlayStation 4, let’s be very clear about that, rather than a generational shift.”

http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/8/12842762/playstation-4-pro-sony-shawn-layden-interview

So what do you see as the future of the typical console cycle? Will the next thing be a PS5 or a new iteration on the PS4?

Right now we were concentrating on how do we iterate within this PS4 life cycle. The technology and improvements behind PS4 Plus are our way of articulating where we think the market wants to go. People will want to have greater fidelity of images and graphics. Where we go from there, we’re going to have to wait and see. It’s our first time innovating within the life cycle, so I’m not exactly sure what impact that will have on our plan going forward. But there will be more PlayStations.

Mostly empty and non-committal, a lot will depend on market reception and publishers feedback, and what technologies will be available in the future. Considering the Pro's boost mode, and all the patents and effort to match BC performance on different hardware, this should provide a hint of what they are considering in the future. If they stay with x86 and AMD, it's almost a given they'll have BC and probably boost mode too. But I see no plans or promises anywhere.

And from Microsoft...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-15-xbox-boss-phil-spencer-the-big-interview

What TV do you have? A standard 1080p TV.
Phil Spencer: Then you should buy this box, because Scorpio is not going to do anything for you. Scorpio is designed as a 4K console, and if you don't have a 4K TV, the benefit we've designed for, you're not going to see. Clearly, you can buy Scorpio, and if and when you decide you want to buy a 4K television to take advantage of the increased performance, obviously the console will be ready for you.

Did he ever correct this? Because that was a batshit crazy statement. As if Phil didn't have enough sleep.

Phil Spencer: That fact that when you buy an Xbox One and start creating your game library and when you buy Scorpio those games and accessories and everything are going to run, make it feel like part of the Xbox One family to me. That's why we communicate it that way. That was also part of the design point of the box.

Last year we announced backward compatibility, which at the time I think people looked at as, hey, can you get your Xbox 360 customers to buy an Xbox One? And yes, that's an important part of it. But really from a soul standpoint, we're thinking about when you buy your games from us, we want you to be able to play those games on the hardware we sell to you.

That's why we say beyond generations. The idea, is this part of the previous generation or the next generation gets a little blurry. For you and I, we usually think about generations in terms of what games will it play? This thing will play Ryse: Son of Rome, a launch game for your Xbox One. And we'll have launch Scorpio games as well that are playable on an Xbox One, Xbox One S and Scorpio and look great on all three of them.

So the idea of a generation is a little difficult to stretch on to this. That's why I focus on 4K and say this is really a six teraflop console built to support 4K and the power of high fidelity VR.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/01/no-new-xbox-every-two-years-says-microsofts-phil-spencer-6227523/

‘I don’t have this desire to every two years have a new console on the shelf; that’s not part of the console business model, and it doesn’t actually help us’

Yes, nobody expected every 2 years either, he keeps repeating that it's not going to be like GPU cards. It was never the question people really want to ask, the question is whether it will be every 3-4 years, ad whether it will be overlapping and not just BC.

I don’t know what the next thing is past Scorpio right now… I’m not trying to turn consoles into the graphics card market where every so often Nvidia or AMD come out with a new card, and if I want a little bit more performance I’m going to go buy that new card’, he added. ‘I think for consoles it’s different. I think you have to hit a spec that actually means something in an ecosystem of televisions and games.’

However, he refused to guarantee that there wouldn’t be Project Scorpio exclusive games in three or four years time, saying only that ‘It’s not our plan’.

So overlapping generations is not their plan? Because that would require allowing developers to ditch support for the original XB1. Any answer to this question puts them between a rock and a hard place.

 

[mosen]

I'm not so sure that Microsoft and Sony aren't talking about the exact same thing. When Sony have been asked about PS5 and future PlayStation consoles, I think what they are talking about is the traditional order-of-magnitude (or close to it) increase in performance which a new generation brings and which neither Pro or Scorpio offer over the 2013 consoles. I think they are trying to reassure customers that future consoles will come with much bigger upgrades than just resolution bumps.

Nothing Sony has said precludes compatibility and I think Sony would struggle to sell a PlayStation 5 if its going to dump the PS4/Pro games library.

They are not. Cerny said clearly that they are still after console generations model:

In lead system architect Mark Cerny’s technical presentation about the Pro earlier this week, he revealed that Sony doesn’t think console generations are a thing of the past:

We don’t believe that generations are going away. They are truly healthy for the industry, and for the gaming community. It’s just that the objectives for PS4 Pro are quite different.

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net...nerations-are-going-away/#TK08HvAWqsTUdAeT.99

Then we have his statement about what define new console generations. You can see that clearly by his definition PS4Pro isn't a new console generation as he called this console a mid-generation console which again this type of labeling (mid-generation) explains that they are after another console generation.

What becomes clear is that Sony itself - perhaps unlike its rival - does not believe that the concept of the console hardware generation is over. Cerny has a number of criteria he believes amounts to a reset in gaming power: primarily, a new CPU architecture and vastly increased memory allocation. And of course, a massive revision in GPU power - Cerny refers to a 434 page, eight-hour PowerPoint presentation he gave to developers about the PS4 graphics core. It was a new paradigm for game makers.
By all of these criteria, PS4 Pro is not a new generation of hardware and there are no 400 page briefings. Sony's new console is an extension to the existing model - the means by which games for the existing PS4 can be optimised to look great on the new range of 4K display hardware, while at the same time offering an enhanced experience for owners of existing HDTVs. It's the same generation - and that's most telling in the actual effort developers will need to put into developing Pro software.

"As a mid-generation release, we knew that whatever we did needed to require minimal effort from developers," Cerny explains. "We showed Days Gone running on PS4 Pro at the New York event. That work was small enough that a single programmer could do it. In general our target was to keep the work needed for PS4 Pro support to a fraction of a per cent of the overall effort needed to create a game, and I believe we have achieved that target."

And then he clearly talked about difficulties which appears from moving to different CPU:

"Moving to a different CPU - even if it's possible to avoid impact to console cost and form factor - runs the very high risk of many existing titles not working properly," Cerny explains. "The origin of these problems is that code running on the new CPU runs code at very different timing from the old one, and that can expose bugs in the game that were never encountered before."

Cerny cites incompatibility problems, even moving between x86 CPU and AMD GPU architectures.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...tation-4-pro-how-sony-made-a-4k-games-machine

As I said before they designed PS4Pro hardware/software to run PS4 games from beginning (as Cerny himself told numerous times) so we can't conclude anything from PS4 and Pro compatibility about PS4/Pro BC support on PS5. Noting is given about this.

On the other hand Microsoft message about Scorpio is "beyond generation" and they never talked about Scorpio as a mid-generation console, as far as I remember:

Given the power of the Scorpio, should it be considered a refresh of the Xbox One, or are we looking at, actually, the next-generation of what you are doing in terms of console? Is that actually the fair assessment of it?

Phil Spencer: That fact that when you buy an Xbox One and start creating your game library and when you buy Scorpio those games and accessories and everything are going to run, make it feel like part of the Xbox One family to me. That's why we communicate it that way. That was also part of the design point of the box.

Last year we announced backward compatibility, which at the time I think people looked at as, hey, can you get your Xbox 360 customers to buy an Xbox One? And yes, that's an important part of it. But really from a soul standpoint, we're thinking about when you buy your games from us, we want you to be able to play those games on the hardware we sell to you.

That's why we say beyond generations. The idea, is this part of the previous generation or the next generation gets a little blurry. For you and I, we usually think about generations in terms of what games will it play? This thing will play Ryse: Son of Rome, a launch game for your Xbox One. And we'll have launch Scorpio games as well that are playable on an Xbox One, Xbox One S and Scorpio and look great on all three of them.

So the idea of a generation is a little difficult to stretch on to this. That's why I focus on 4K and say this is really a six teraflop console built to support 4K and the power of high fidelity VR.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-15-xbox-boss-phil-spencer-the-big-interview

So when Microsoft talks about "beyond generations" they mean blurrier console generations that let player experience similar games/accessories in a relatively long period of time on different consoles/hardware. Now read my impression:

Microsoft and Sony executive policies seem very similar right now, since both Pro and Scorpio are upgrades for PS4 and XB1 respectively and their graphics processing power are fairly similar (if we don't consider RAM, bandwidth and CPU which might be very different). But I don't evaluate Scorpio and Pro in the same way because this companies have different goals. Microsoft cited numerous times that there won't be any console generations going ahead and in contrast, Sony has repeatedly said it has no plan to abandon console generations and even evaluated this model as a positive point.

The initial result of this strategies may seem similar, but their end goals are totally different.

 

[MrFox]

The initial result of this strategies may seem similar, but their end goals are totally different.

What you quoted from MS contains no information about their goals beyond scorpio.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I've seen vids on YT showing it run, at poor framerates largely (although I can't pin down a decent PS360 like spec), but only on early levels and not with all the gear and nonsense. I don't believe a minimum spec machine can run full-fat Torment 10+ levels with all the stuff hapenning. Again, PS3 started slowing down already and that was without 200 mobs affected by locusts etc. But this doesn't really help the topic so I'll drop it. Feel free to PM me to prove me wrong!

There are certainly other games not possible on PS360 that required a generational advance.

You can, I can run it relatively well at 720p on a Radeon 5450 (my HTPC) which is a LOT less powerful than the min spec x1950 Pro. Now if I was also running FRAPs in order to capture video footage for YouTube, it'd be an unplayable mess on my HTPC. It'd likely struggle on full Torment, but this is a GPU with significantly worse (1/4 - 1/2 the X1950) capabilities running on DDR2 memory.

The min spec is more than capable of running of running D3 in any area. Note that the NVidia min spec is also a GPU that has 256 MB of VRAM similar to the PS3. And with the GPU is relatively similar to that in the PS3, it is made worse by the inefficiencies of Dx9 rendering on PC compared to running on console.

And all of this is ignoring that Blizzard hasn't done anything to the game to make the game run worse since the launch of ROS. If there is an ROS version that runs on PS3/X360, then the current version of the game would run just as well. MOB density in Torment currently isn't higher than it was at RoS launch.

In fact mob density in many areas has been greatly reduced since the introduction of Paragon points with strategies to maximize Paragon XP gain evolving accordingly. IE - it's harder to level up Paragon points rapidly now than it was multiple patches ago due to lower mob density. There was a rather large uproar on the Blizzard forums when they did this.

Additionally with the latest patch, Large Nephalem rifts no longer spawn reducing system load. Also makes it slightly trickier to get seasonal journey credit for things like Clear Torment XIII Nephalem rift in 3 minutes or less. However, some cave maps see higher mob density. But that was needed as mob density in cave maps was absolutely pathetic before this. I think it still needs to be adjusted slightly higher so you don't groan in frustration whenever you find yourself in a cave map in a Nephalem rift. There's been balance changes to balance out the effect of smaller rift maps, however, so that it feels roughly similar to how it was before.

Either way, if a system could run ROS at launch, it can run the current version of D3 on the latest patch just as well. And if it has a Dx11 capable card and a 64 bit OS, it can actually run it slightly better now. Obviously that last not being applicable to a console version of the game (PS4/XBO already used a 64 bit version, for example).

Regards,
SB

 

[mosen]

What you quoted from MS contains no information about their goals beyond scorpio.

Their goal seems clear to me and everyone who followed their strategies. Separating console's hardware and software to provide:

1- Faster meaningful hardware revisions/upgrades.
2- Supporting games/software on consoles, like PC, through BC and FC and allowing users to play their games, that they already have purchased, on newer hardware.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

They are not. Cerny said clearly that they are still after console generations model:

The bits that Cerny did say do not preclude backwards compatibility and the rest of what you posted were not Sony's words but Richard Leadbetter of DF. It's clear that Sony did not say this because Richard Leadbetter would not have said "I came away with the impression that PS5 will be a clean break, an actual generational leap as we know it."

I can see why you infer backwards compatibility is out of the window but that is patently not what Sony said. That is a very easy fact to report. But we're back to the point about what Sony mean by a generation leap which I believe is about the increase in performance, rather than the concept of library compatibility.

 

[mosen]

The bits that Cerny did say do not preclude backwards compatibility and the rest of what you posted were not Sony's words but Richard Leadbetter of DF. It's clear that Sony did not say this because Richard Leadbetter would not have said "I came away with the impression that PS5 will be a clean break, an actual generational leap as we know it."

I can see why you infer backwards compatibility is out of the window but that is patently not what Sony said. That is a very easy fact to report. But we're back to the point about what Sony mean by a generation leap which I believe is about the increase in performance, rather than the concept of library compatibility.

I'm not saying BC is out of the window. What Cerny said do not preclude backwards compatibility but it confirmed that BC on PS5 is not conclusive either. Cerny specifically talked about CPU problems : "The origin of these problems is that code running on the new CPU runs code at very different timing from the old one, and that can expose bugs in the game that were never encountered before.". It's not about generation leap, he clearly speaks about running PS4 games on newer x86 CPUs and because of these problems they decided to use Jaguar on Pro. Even in order to run PS4 legacy games on Pro they clocked Jaguar at 1.6 GHz: "What we do for the legacy games, if you want to play a game from 2-3 years ago that hasn't been patched or tested, is we just run that at 1.6 gigahertz". They have no solution for running PS4 games on newer x86 CPUs yet and as far as I know Sony has no track record in using software solutions for this kind of problems.

Also most of the quotes are from Cerny, and Leadbetter merely transferred Cerny's statements here and there. The most important parts are also directly quoted from Cerny.

 

[Rangers]

My "realistic" spec estimate:
8 core Puma (2.4-2.5Ghz) cpu
12GB GDDR5 memory
6TFlop gpu

Lets see 2 out of those 3 specs are either explicitly or nearly confirmed so...way to go out on a limb LOL.