All purpose Sales and Sales Rumours and Anecdotes [2023 Edition]

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While continuous engagement matters, it really depends on the game (single player vs. multi) and in the end MS doesn't care if I'm flitting around from game to game between Starfield, Halo, Forza, Sea of Thieves etc... as long as I stay subscribed to GP. Nevertheless I'm sure they gather their market research (because unlike some people here, they believe in such things) and figure out what seems to be working and what isn't for future patches and game development.
 
Yeah, the real numbers I would worry about if I were Microsoft are Gamepass growth in Feb-March 2024. By then, all of the people getting past their free trails and 3 month gift subs, and we'll see if they can maintain the momentum started with Starfield.
 
While continuous engagement matters, it really depends on the game (single player vs. multi) and in the end MS doesn't care if I'm flitting around from game to game between Starfield, Halo, Forza, Sea of Thieves etc... as long as I stay subscribed to GP.
What's the relevance of the download numbers for titles though, or market discussion? That value, GP subscribers, is its own metric. Where does "12 million Starfield players" fit in with a sales thread if those numbers aren't comparable to title sales and how are people supposed to interpret them?

So like I say, there's a reason MS gets 'bad press' for big install numbers. Hopefully you can recognise that and appreciate the 'bad press' isn't unfounded and is the result of MS's GP ambitions and how that fits in with conventional industry discussion. ;)
 
I wouldn't be so sure it's irrelevant for Starfield and Bethesda's perspective. Bethesda in it's just released patch for Skyrim SE is making another push for a paid mod revenue stream. They are going to likely try to monetize Starfield the same (and likely more so) and therefore ongoing engagement is relevant and not just title sales.
 
I wouldn't be so sure it's irrelevant for Starfield and Bethesda's perspective. Bethesda in it's just released patch for Skyrim SE is making another push for a paid mod revenue stream. They are going to likely try to monetize Starfield the same (and likely more so) and therefore ongoing engagement is relevant and not just title sales.
Yes. I agree ongoing engagement is important. Download numbers doesn't tell you that when cost to download is zero. Of 12 million downloads, how many are potential clients Bethesda can sell content to? If 12 million buy the game, you know there's 12 million initially interested folk. If 12 million download a game for free, the number who are actually engaged with the game may be anything from 12 million to zero.

Which is where people can look at 12 million downloads and not get excited, in contrast to getting excited about 12 million sales of a game. 12 million sales is 12 million times the sale price banked cash. It's 12 million players. 12 million downloads is indistinct and doesn't let us know what's going on with the title. Then people try to be detectives and look at other figures and tell stories about dropping interest etc.
 
Yes. I agree ongoing engagement is important. Download numbers doesn't tell you that when cost to download is zero. Of 12 million downloads, how many are potential clients Bethesda can sell content to? If 12 million buy the game, you know there's 12 million initially interested folk. If 12 million download a game for free, the number who are actually engaged with the game may be anything from 12 million to zero.

Which is where people can look at 12 million downloads and not get excited, in contrast to getting excited about 12 million sales of a game. 12 million sales is 12 million times the sale price banked cash. It's 12 million players. 12 million downloads is indistinct and doesn't let us know what's going on with the title. Then people try to be detectives and look at other figures and tell stories about dropping interest etc.
Tangential but important vector to this:

Engagement matters, especially for F2P titles, but it is still very effective at the paid levels and if gamepass continues to drive players to play, some percentage will purchase MTXs.
 
Tangential but important vector to this:

Engagement matters, especially for F2P titles, but it is still very effective at the paid levels and if gamepass continues to drive players to play, some percentage will purchase MTXs.
Does a single game's long term engagement really matter if it simply works as a gateway for people to sign up to a subscription service. If 5 million people all sign up for Gamepass because of Starfield and they all hate it, but find other games that make Gamepass worth it for them to continue subscribing, then Starfield's current player count is less relevant to Microsoft's strategy of driving a subscription based revenue stream.
 
Does a single game's long term engagement really matter if it simply works as a gateway for people to sign up to a subscription service. If 5 million people all sign up for Gamepass because of Starfield and they all hate it, but find other games that make Gamepass worth it for them to continue subscribing, then Starfield's current player count is less relevant to Microsoft's strategy of driving a subscription based revenue stream.
I think it’s important if MS is looking to have varied revenue streams. It costs significantly less to make Starfield better and to release some MTX than it is to create an all new title.

Being able to release more content for Starfield to bring back engagement and mtx purchases must be preferable to letting it go as it is. But also longer term commitment to the product to make it better will find new subscribers or purchasers as well. It’s an important indicator of investment.
 
Reminder this is the Sales and Sales Rumours thread. Value and execution of subscription services is here.

I don't know where download/install stats fit in. That's a different type of industry analysis to this thread that's tracking hardware and gaming trends as seen through sales numbers.
 
While continuous engagement matters, it really depends on the game (single player vs. multi) and in the end MS doesn't care if I'm flitting around from game to game between Starfield, Halo, Forza, Sea of Thieves etc... as long as I stay subscribed to GP.
This is what Bobby Kotick mean when he said subscriptions were "value destructive" for IP. There is an accepted marketing principle that things you get for "free" (*GamePass is not free) are perceived to be of lesser value to consumers than things paid for. There have been studies show that when consumers buy something, but are not immediately sold on it, they will likely persevere and may come to like or even love a product. When you remove that initial financial investment, that is less likely to happen.

It probably doesn't' help that compared to Fallout 4 (nuclear armageddon, homicide, Deathclaw fight) and Skyrim (dragons, bears, giant spiders), Starfield has a relatively pedestrian start.

I am actually one which downloaded Starfield but had no time to play it yet.
I also downloaded Starfield on my Series X under GamePass but will probably never play it on Xbox. It was my backup should there be a some weird technical issues with the PC version. I wonder if I delete it on Xbox without ever having launched it, Microsoft will know. And wonder why... :unsure:
 
Well I'm glad to see you've come around on market research.
I have not changed my position on market research. It is not silver bullet you perceive it to be for Microsoft to change their fortunes.

What Kotick calls value destructive, I call consumer friendly. :)
Kotick is talking about perception of value. The value in GamePass for many is for a cheap monthly subscription you get to access all that valuable content, that you would otherwise have to buy. If the perception of the value of that content drops, then the perceived value of GamePass also drops. All of the big independent publishers know this which is why big AA or AAA games from those publishers only come to GamePass way after launches, promotions and sales.

This is already evident with some people's views on Starfield being disappointed but pointing out it's ok because they didn't pay for it, it was just part of GamePass. That's perceived devaluation in action.
 
Kotick is talking about perception of value. The value in GamePass for many is for a cheap monthly subscription you get to access all that valuable content, that you would otherwise have to buy. If the perception of the value of that content drops, then the perceived value of GamePass also drops. All of the big independent publishers know this which is why big AA or AAA games from those publishers only come to GamePass way after launches, promotions and sales.
This is why I've said before, and still believe, the most valuable type of games on Gamepass are actually games like MLB The Show. Not only was that a once Sony first party exclusive, it's Gamepass inclusion means that for the cost of the game, you can upgrade your Live (or Gamepass Core now) to Ultimate, and since the game releases annually, you always have the newest version as long as you keep the subscription.
Not sure where to put this or if it has been posted before

Games are to expensive and people wait for discounts
From the article
This sentiment is reflected in the purchasing habits of respondents, with only 36% acquiring digital PC games at full price. The majority prefer discounts, bundles, or obtaining games for free.
What? People want deals or stuff for free when compared to paying full price?
Honestly, the split is better than I expected given the article's title at 36% full price, 32% discounted, and 32% free. I didn't expect the free games to be so high. Perhaps that's the Epic Games Store effect. With that said, more than half of people who paid for a game did so at full price. I don't think that's a doom and gloom scenario for PC gaming, though I think we would need to see this data over time to see how the data is trending.
 
I have not changed my position on market research. It is not silver bullet you perceive it to be for Microsoft to change their fortunes.

I never said that, so please leave your straw men at home.

Kotick is talking about perception of value. The value in GamePass for many is for a cheap monthly subscription you get to access all that valuable content, that you would otherwise have to buy. If the perception of the value of that content drops, then the perceived value of GamePass also drops. All of the big independent publishers know this which is why big AA or AAA games from those publishers only come to GamePass way after launches, promotions and sales.

This is already evident with some people's views on Starfield being disappointed but pointing out it's ok because they didn't pay for it, it was just part of GamePass. That's perceived devaluation in action.
I know what he's talking about. I just don't agree with it. I totally get why big publishers wait a year or more before bringing something to GP, but that's just because they're trying to maximize their revenues from those not willing to wait for it to hit GP. After all, if it truly "destroyed" value they wouldn't allow it at all. Gamers pretty much know that eventually CP2077 will be on GP after all.

GP is good for MS and good for gamers. I agree that it's probably not good for Ubisoft etc... if it takes off to the degree that MS is hoping. That's not value degradation as much as it's value transference from publishers to consumers, which I'm sure Bobby didn't like before MS gave him a big check. It's great that I've only paid about $30 per big game to play stuff on GP in the last 3 years. That's probably not great for Ubisoft though.

The reality is that MS has decided that they likely can't grow the business enough without GP because of Sony's dominance in the console space. It's business. Sony is console dominant and earning more outside a GP-type model. It's "cheaper" for MS to try GP than Sony since they'll lose less revenue from 3rd parties to attempt it.
 
As a MS shareholder I expect future growth of gamepass to either diminish or completely negate any lost revenue from lower sales of ABK's titles from no longer being 3rd party. This is what Phil needs to deliver on. Let's see if he can make it happen.
 
I still think the best of both worlds for MS is to charge PS gamers $70 for CoD and put it on GP on Day 1 on Xbox/PC. Let Sony's diehard fans pay for CoD development so that MS has shiny bobbles to put on GP to drive subscriptions.

If Phil really believes that PS gamers are PS gamers and hard to pull away from the PS ecosystem, then there's no point in exclusives anymore except in a few rare instances.

Maybe this is an idea for later with other 1st party games, when GP is super irresistible to the point where almost no Xbox GP subscriber would give it up to go to PS.

Like, if GP gets to 60+ million subs and 5 or 6 AAA titles annually , MS just makes Elder Scrolls VI $70 on PS and "free" on GP.
 
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I would really hope MS doesn't put CoD on gamepass day 1. That one series alone should generate enough sales to recover the cost of development. There's no reason why MS shouldn't be smart about which titles go on gamepass day 1. CoD can go on 6 months later after they've sold millions.
 
I think that might be counter to their strategy to push GP subs. More market research needs to be done. :)

What else do CoD players play? My older son only plays CoD, so GP Day 1 will never get him to buy GP. What do the rest of CoD players play? Will it push a non-GP CoD player into being a GP-subber if it's free on Day 1? MS should be able to figure that out.
 
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