Sony PS6, Microsoft neXt Series - 10th gen console speculation [2020]

[ChuckeRearmed]

64bit emulation has been running internally for microsoft since the surface pro x launch. The issue is that MS doesn't design their own chips so they don't get a huge say in what qualcom does.

Hm. But does it really matter what Qualcomm does considering that what MS needs to do is just to run the emulation layers on the device? Or it is related to the ability to run it natively or something.

Trust me the apple making their own chips is what's going to get them broken up along with their store shananigans

But under what basis? I don't think that the self sufficiency is enough reason to broke up the company. If you produce your own OS and hardware for it - on what basis they should be split?
Though I don't really like Epic's suit either.

 

[liams]

64bit emulation has been running internally for microsoft since the surface pro x launch. The issue is that MS doesn't design their own chips so they don't get a huge say in what qualcom does.

Trust me the apple making their own chips is what's going to get them broken up along with their store shananigans

Eastmen, not sure if you would know anything about it, but do you know if Microsoft is doing anything with their in house processor architecture EDGE (Explicit data graph execution) They did an industry panel about it and showed it running windows 10, and claimed to have ported .net and the llvm compiler, along with a few linux distros to it, back in 2018, but they seem to have gone mum since. They even took down some information pages on the Microsoft website (or blog?) about it. There had been working on the architecture since 2010 with a number of people (dozens to hundreds at once) so it seems more than a lark. The benefit of the architecture is apparently that it is inherently scalable, from a single core to thousands.

here's an article about it
https://www.theregister.com/2018/06...campaign=Feed%3A+co%2FtyqN+%28The+Register%29


Bit more on topic:


With Microsoft releasing the x64 bit emulation now I hope its more than just a reaction to Apple, and that they intend to have some more substantial arm computers available for next year.

 

[Globalisateur]

...novel end...

You need to do a summary. Many of us won't read those walls of text.

 

[eastmen]

Hm. But does it really matter what Qualcomm does considering that what MS needs to do is just to run the emulation layers on the device? Or it is related to the ability to run it natively or something.


But under what basis? I don't think that the self sufficiency is enough reason to broke up the company. If you produce your own OS and hardware for it - on what basis they should be split?
Though I don't really like Epic's suit either.

Any time you emulate something your going to loose performance vs running it natively. The arm chip MS is using is older than what apple is using it was released to market over a year ago and while modified by ms is still a qualcom design.

Apple has a problem. They find a supplier and they integrate it into their product and then either spin up their own version of it and stop using the third party or buy that company up. That's really tricky ground to be on. As for the store . Look at spotify and tidal and all the other music apps. For years Apple took a 30% cut from them all while creating their own music streaming service. Apple used their power as a platform holder to gather data from competitors to create a product and drive them out of the market. They did that while these companies were paying them.

Microsoft got in trouble because it put a web browser out of the box in windows. One day someone is going to wake up and go after apple for this. Epic was dumb but if Apple kept taking money from Epic and then made thier own graphics engine to sell to devs epic would have had a better case

Eastmen, not sure if you would know anything about it, but do you know if Microsoft is doing anything with their in house processor architecture EDGE (Explicit data graph execution) They did an industry panel about it and showed it running windows 10, and claimed to have ported .net and the llvm compiler, along with a few linux distros to it, back in 2018, but they seem to have gone mum since. They even took down some information pages on the Microsoft website (or blog?) about it. There had been working on the architecture since 2010 with a number of people (dozens to hundreds at once) so it seems more than a lark. The benefit of the architecture is apparently that it is inherently scalable, from a single core to thousands.

here's an article about it
https://www.theregister.com/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_windows_10/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+co%2FtyqN+%28The+Register%29


Bit more on topic:


With Microsoft releasing the x64 bit emulation now I hope its more than just a reaction to Apple, and that they intend to have some more substantial arm computers available for next year.

No idea what they are doing with that chip. I'm more involved in other intangible stuff. x64 bit emulation was supposed to be a go with pro x but the chip was to slow. MS is going to have it in an "open" beta type deal until pro x 2 (not the refresh) they have more input on the chip in there.


There are from what I understand 8 different designs Microsoft is working on hand in hand with a big graphics player which will end up in everything from kinect to desktop computers to surface

 

[BillSpencer]

In my country banks are crying that Apple Pay is bad. Years the banks had the ability to create their own system on Android which has a much bigger market share. They were never able to came up with anything that didn't involve having limits, putting in codes, the apps crashing. Most of them didn't even support creating an Android app.
Then Apple pay came for one of the biggest banks, and within 24 hours they had more mobile payments through Apple Pay than they ever did with years of Android. Anyway, Apple Pay is much more superior, how it operates especially with the no limit parts, or no pin code ever needed to be entered on the terminal which has diseases and COVID-19 of other people on it.
Another of the biggest banks then just killed their Android app because of how shitty android updates were, breaking their app constantly and nobody using it in big numbers anyway even though they have a bigger market share.

With Spotify it is the same, Apple Music is a much better service that pays artist double compared to Spotify.


The problem with MS is that their products were just plain shitty. Especially internet browser which they forced was the biggest abomination.
Because of MS people were forced to use inferior products.
Because of Intel in the early 2000s, people were forced to buy inferior products.

If the product is better, people will choose it. Look at Apple Watch, AirPods, iPhone, Mac products and so on. Nobody is forcing anyone to use it.
Just look at yourself, with your adware Windows and adware Android phones with Facebook apps, WhatsApp apps, google chrome browser, Spotify, and so on.
You can choose and use a computer and mobile perfectly without ever needing to give a single cent to Apple.
MS and Intel used their monopoly and wealth to employ actual anti competitive tactics, paying the biggest European electronics store for not using AMD processors, offering the biggest computer brands discounts for not having products with AMD processors.

compare that to Google, Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, *and* Apple charging 30% rates for their platform.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/google-removes-android-version-of-fortnite-from-google-play-store

"MS is evil because they don't charge themselves 30% when somebody buys MS Onedrive or Forza 8!!"
"Omg google is so anti competitive because they have Google music without the 30% they should be broken up!!"
"Nintendo makes 42% more if they sell their own game on switch versus if Ubisoft sells it!!!"

said no one ever.


MS wants to have their own mobile platform, their own Appstore, their own AirPods, their own MacBooks, their own processors.
They just suck at it and then they pretend to be all humble about it.

 

[PSman1700]

Hm, not buying the ’apple is superior to everything in the world’

 

[BillSpencer]

Hm, not buying the ’apple is superior to everything in the world’

They are not superior to everything in the world, maybe (arm) processors, privacy, operating systems, browsers, wearables, phones, wireless audio, tablets, laptops and all in one computers; areas which they choose to focus on.


Anyway, I really believe Sony is 'stuck' with AMD, which makes MS more flexible.
I do expect Xbox Series to sell well below 30 million units in 5 years time, but still, I don't think MS is going to give up the home console market. Their designs for the series are pretty good, especially if you take into account the form factor.

AMD however should be able to come up with their own emulation layer.

Even if the hardware takes a 50% hit in performance when emulating X86 code, that does not matter if the ARM hardware itself is twice as fast, which it should be in time for the next generation.

 

[liams]

No idea what they are doing with that chip. I'm more involved in other intangible stuff. x64 bit emulation was supposed to be a go with pro x but the chip was to slow. MS is going to have it in an "open" beta type deal until pro x 2 (not the refresh) they have more input on the chip in there.


There are from what I understand 8 different designs Microsoft is working on hand in hand with a big graphics player which will end up in everything from kinect to desktop computers to surface

If AMD, does that mean K12 is back? I always thought it was disappointing that AMD shelved it. And if Nvidia, they aren't hanging around in designing arm/nvidia parts

Do you think there's a chance we see the pro x 2 in 2021? Maybe releasing alongside the rumoured major windows update that's coming next year?


It's an exciting time in the industry, it really feels like 2020 was an inflection point in personal computing and gaming with different processor architectures becoming viable, and game pass really finding its footing this year, and the full roll out of xCloud is almost here. Sonys rumoured game pass competitor, Luna, Stadia. Very exciting time.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

Any time you emulate something your going to loose performance vs running it natively. The arm chip MS is using is older than what apple is using it was released to market over a year ago and while modified by ms is still a qualcom design.

I see.

Apple has a problem. They find a supplier and they integrate it into their product and then either spin up their own version of it and stop using the third party or buy that company up. That's really tricky ground to be on.

But I don't think it is prohibited? If they are able to develop something better it is basically the example of competition no? Like if I use wood wheel for my carriage, and then create a rubber tire for the wheel, get some wheel production facilities too to have a more convenient wheel design for the rubber - it will become better a wheel, but there is not thing wrong if I use those carriages for myself. It doesn't mean I still have to order old wood wheels from third-party for that.

As for the store . Look at spotify and tidal and all the other music apps. For years Apple took a 30% cut from them all while creating their own music streaming service. Apple used their power as a platform holder to gather data from competitors to create a product and drive them out of the market. They did that while these companies were paying them.

Well if their product is worse than the one that Apple proposes - integrated with all other systems - I don't think it is a problem as for the end consumer it is even better. By that logic if you use some tool, you cannot make it better for yourself only.

 

[PSman1700]

maybe (arm) processors, privacy, operating systems, browsers, wearables, phones, wireless audio, tablets, laptops and all in one computers; areas which they choose to focus on.

They certainly have an edge in many of those areas. In special SoC and wearables. Wouldnt call their phones superior, a match if anything. Wearables yes they are ahead, its only samsung that is closing in there.
Its mostly due to the closed eco system, brings alot of advantages but also disadvantages

Anyway, I really believe Sony is 'stuck' with AMD, which makes MS more flexible.
I do expect Xbox Series to sell well below 30 million units in 5 years time, but still, I don't think MS is going to give up the home console market.

I dont think being stuck with AMD is much of a problem for the rest of the home console lifetime. A plastic box every 7 years seems not the future anyway.

 

[BillSpencer]

It is often said that consoles would disappear. Sony bought onlive and gaikai to prepare for if the day that comes. So far there are only a few million people who use it VS 120+ million home consoles. I don’t think they are going anywhere

 

[thicc_gaf]

This whole alternative architecture discussion has really gotten me on a tangent!

Apparently, Microsoft has been working on its own custom processor architecture since 2010! It started as a research project with a couple of people but in 2018 the team working on it had 'dozens to hundreds of engineers spanning continents'. Its called the Explicit data graph execution, or EDGE architecture. The architecture is inherently scalable, so you could have a single core in some smart device and hundreds to thousands in a desktop computer. They have already demonstrated windows 10 running on an FPGA of the CPU 'E2' design, (below) which they showed in 2018. After this they scrubbed the Microsoft website of a large portion of the information about it. A Microsoft spokesperson said in the same year that the E2 cpu was just a research project and that they had no plans to commercialise it.


So maybe this is Microsoft big play? Their own inherently scalable cpu architecture? They have been working on it since 2010, with the number of engineers ranging from the dozens to hundreds, and have fully ported windows 10, .net, the llvm compiler and some linux distros to the processor architecture. Seems a ton of work for just a research project!


https://www.theregister.com/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_windows_10/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+co%2FtyqN+%28The+Register%29

Pairing this up with the recent ARM news and, yeah, I think they're gearing towards something in-house for fuller vertical integration. Very exciting. It's throwing some of my own predictions for next-gen off by a strong curveball.

Companies do not purchase anything just to get the money from it - they purchase something that would align with their business interests.

Then why are MS doing the EDGE R&D linked above? And investing in ARM designs? They would do neither if they didn't align with their business interests. Would not write off any possibilities at this point to be perfectly honest.

64bit emulation has been running internally for microsoft since the surface pro x launch. The issue is that MS doesn't design their own chips so they don't get a huge say in what qualcom does.

Trust me the apple making their own chips is what's going to get them broken up along with their store shananigans

That's if these courts even care about monopolies at this point, which they don't because let's face it, if they did we'd of seen more things getting "broken up". In quotes because arguably rulings of monopolies have only really made some of these companies more powerful and implemented special protections for them from governmental bodies to a degree. AT&T seems to be a good example of that.

Lastly, since government bodies have not only investments but ongoing partnerships for R&D with many of these massive tech corporations now, it's probably against its own interest to take them to court over monopolistic practices, if they can even prove such is occurring. How can we expect partial rulings by courts within governments that literally benefit from the presence of the titanic companies?

But all of that to say, I doubt what Apple is doing will get them in too much trouble. At most they'll be forced to provide licenses to one or several other companies for compatible designs, similar to what Intel had to do for AMD back in the day. And that's probably as far as it'd go, same with Microsoft if by some chance they acquired ARM, which I dunno can happen since Nvidia already put in a buy for them and that probably won't get rejected. If a company like MS happens to focus instead towards RISC-V designs, then there's literally no way they could be tried for a monopoly by selling uber amounts of products with that design as RISC-V is an open standard.

You need to do a summary. Many of us won't read those walls of text.

Aw, I thought I had found my home for these novels. Maybe I really am Brian Griffin.

I guess I could just list the specifications and leave it at that, and shorten some of the other stuff into another post.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

It is often said that consoles would disappear.

The emerging markets and Japan are already conquered by handhelds, mobiles and PCs. This way is the future. Home consoles have no place there - home consoles have neither PCs flexibility, nor mobile's mobility (pun intended). That's why even console manufacturers have stuff like remote play, because that's what the market needs. In fact modern consoles are already becoming crippled PCs in a sense.

A lot of people - at least the most vocal ones and especially on Playstation - don't like streaming services because they have never used it or never used in the condition where it was designed for them to use. Servers will come, latency will decrease, Internet will be faster. It is the future.

Sony bought onlive and gaikai to prepare for if the day that comes. So far there are only a few million people who use it VS 120+ million home consoles. I don’t think they are going anywhere

Because PS Now is an afterthought/gimmick and its current implementation is akin MS's attempt to create their own Windows Phone 7 or something.

I still don't get why are you hating MS so much though

Then why are MS doing the EDGE R&D linked above? And investing in ARM designs? They would do neither if they didn't align with their business interests. Would not write off any possibilities at this point to be perfectly honest.

Because what are they doing is for their internal consumption - of course they will try to push some standards API like DX12 or whatever - but they don't need to make a sizeable investment - buying ARM - and enter the hardware market. It is not something that MS would do - they learnt it hard way that buying everything is not good. I would fully expect such move from the modern Amazon though lol

In fact MS is actually quite close to american government - unlike Amazon who is basically building a parallel society or something - and looking at MS' history they are trying to stay low, while being involved in various areas. They prefer to raise a competitor who would be slightly or just stronger, but will be under attack by the government.

 

[BillSpencer]

"They prefer to raise a competitor who would be slightly or just stronger, but will be under attack by the government." < riiiiiiight. So Apple having more than 50% of all profits of the computer industry and also more than 50% of all profits of the phone industry is all part of MS' plan? Or Apple developing the A- and now the M-series. Not to mention the Apple Watch; that was MS as well right, with their Microsoft Band? Or Windows Mobile that was created so that apple would give birth to the iPhone. I really hope you are not serious.

MS tried with Windows Mobile, had the smartphone market at one point, and then failed completely.
MS tried with Microsoft Band, MS tried with tablets. They tried with AR, but are now laying low because "They prefer to raise a competitor who would be slightly or just stronger, but will be under attack by the government" right? They didn't want Hololens to be successful?

That sounds awfully apologetic, I can see why you would pretend the console market is dying is well, because you look at MS sales and declining success in that area. The reality is that Sony and Nintendo are more successful now than ever. And an 'afterthought' such as PSNow still has more users than what xcloud and google stadia, combined. But that is probably just MS' plan of PSnow becoming "slightly or just stronger".



Back on topic: the good thing is that they will try to get an actual power advantage for the next generation; so Xbox 5 will be a relative cheap and powerful machine for multi platforms.

I am guessing around 30-40TFLOP with 32GB GDDR6 or GDDR7 ram. and a 5TB ssd at the very least.
PS6 I am not sure on..

 

[PSman1700]

Home consoles have no place there - home consoles have neither PCs flexibility

Lol. But its the truth, we are moving away from plastic boxes every 7 years. Its quite obvious. Most wont even care.

I still don't get why are you hating MS so much though

You havent been here long enough, but he never liked MS since 2004.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Lol. But its the truth, we are moving away from plastic boxes every 7 years. Its quite obvious. Most wont even care.

Perhaps. Maybe it will be more 'obvious' when console manufactures actually have a hope in hell of actually keeping up with consumer demand.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

"They prefer to raise a competitor who would be slightly or just stronger, but will be under attack by the government." < riiiiiiight. So Apple having more than 50% of all profits of the computer industry and also more than 50% of all profits of the phone industry is all part of MS' plan? Or Apple developing the A- and now the M-series. Not to mention the Apple Watch; that was MS as well right, with their Microsoft Band? Or Windows Mobile that was created so that apple would give birth to the iPhone. I really hope you are not serious.

Apple's success - just like Nintendo's success with Switch - was the result of them guessing correctly what the future would want. Stylus and multi-touch control could save both Symbian and Windows Mobile if done right. But people thought that it would not be popular or not needed. Why would we need streaming services if the home consoles sells a ton? The same logic were applied and the result we could/can see.

Nintendo hit the bullseye with handheld devices for example - which makes Sony's failure with Vita after the successful PSP is even more sad. Apple hit the bullseye with multi-touch and ecosystem.

MS tried with Windows Mobile, had the smartphone market at one point, and then failed completely. MS tried with Microsoft Band, MS tried with tablets.

Microsoft Surface is doing more or less fine though. And I think Surface Phone might have a good chance to return if they will be able to provide emulation of Android for it. Imagine having Windows Phone with Windows 10 features and software support.

They tried with AR, but are now laying low because "They prefer to raise a competitor who would be slightly or just stronger, but will be under attack by the government" right? They didn't want Hololens to be successful?

AR for now is kinda niche and Hololens - which I believe I doing fine in the market - is too expensive for the mass market for now. But it will return eventually - stuff like this is the future. But far away future though, where we either will have it like glasses, or lenses or something smaller than the current headset.

That sounds awfully apologetic, I can see why you would pretend the console market is dying is well, because you look at MS sales and declining success in that area. The reality is that Sony and Nintendo are more successful now than ever. And an 'afterthought' such as PSNow still has more users than what xcloud and google stadia, combined. But that is probably just MS' plan of PSnow becoming "slightly or just stronger".

You are too hell bent on a console war at this point

MS is going into the future with streaming services and developed ecosystem, where purchasing games allows you to access them on various devices and if they combined it all within the same Windows ecosystem with the backwards compatibility - thus making gaming using Windows, Xbox, mobile phone, TV, Surface, Surface phone available everywhere on each fridge roughly speaking - it can be huge.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Microsoft Surface is doing more or less fine though. And I think Surface Phone might have a good chance to return if they will be able to provide emulation of Android for it. Imagine having Windows Phone with Windows 10 features and software support.

What does this even mean? What possible advantages would this bring to your average smartphone user? Why would you choose a phone that emulates Android vs one that runs it natively?

 

[BillSpencer]

What does this even mean? What possible advantages would this bring to your average smartphone user?

Maybe the return of non-touch friendly interface, plus the 'stability'/performance of google android combined with the rich app ecosystem of the Microsoft store?

MS could have bought Nokia and they would still fail. (actually they did at some point (bought buying Nokia as well as failing with windows phone 7/8/10))

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Maybe the return of non-touch friendly interface, plus the 'stability'/performance of google android combined with the rich app ecosystem of the Microsoft store?

MS could have bought Nokia and they would still fail. (actually they did at some point (bought buying Nokia as well as failing with windows phone 7/8/10))

You just have to look at the market, see which things are popular, and combine them! Worked great for Windows 8