Next-Generation NVMe SSD and I/O Technology [PC, PS5, XBSX|S]

[Remij]

Based on your imaginations, which at this point is admittedly very difficult to keep up with.



He is a developer who works on both platforms. You are not. Therefore, no, you wouldn't be privy to such information.



That's what you don't get. I'm not sharing my opinion, I'm going off of the findings of someone who has direct knowledge. Your opinion, as it relates to this matter, has no value because you have no direct knowledge as support. Just your rudimentary (flawed) idea of how YOU think certain attributes should play out.

Based off logic. If Steam Deck runs Ratchet and Clank, Xbox can run Ratchet and Clank... and having another second or two in the portal doesn't change anything. Loading into a level from an archstone in Demon's Souls taking 2 more seconds doesn't change anything. You're not getting games that can be built on one that couldn't on another. Nothing release thus far has proven that.

I'm allowed to have the opinion that he overhyped himself based off the potential of a given piece of hardware... which IMO hasn't materialized into anything meaningful thus far. You can whine about that opinion all you want... you're not changing it.

I'm not inclined to believe everything every single developer states on the internet.. I need to see tangible proof which backs up their claims. Until that happens... I'm not convinced. Not my problem that you take every word which supports your theories as gospel.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Every audio (3D or not) is handled by Tempest that is rendering that 3D sound to stereo,

You and the other guy missed the point. We were presented the promise of 3D audio in headphones, and environmental audio processing. It's hardly present. Cerny didn't big up the Tempest Audio Engine for 'more of the same you've had the past 3 generations'.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I'm calm as a cucumber, but I do think Xbox Series has at least three hardware features that failed to go beyond marketing hype so far.

1. Tier 2 VRS
2. Mesh Shaders
3. Extra bits for HW ML support

For all the talk from them in the beginning we haven't seen a single game release take advantage. The responsibility is on xbox studios to make games that leverage these so called hw gamechangers. Sony only bragged about their i/o system and I think it was warranted considering Demon Souls, Ratchet, even Spiderman to a lesser extent. Even with ML Sony didn't mention anything about it during the marketing runs but it has been implemented in Spiderman Miles Morales for muscle deformation and God of War Ragnarok for texture upsampling.

That's not a problem with the Xbox hw but a matter of reality for devs not being able to focus on those things for variety of reasons. It's not power of the cloud blast processing nonsense

 

[Nesh]

This is thread is starting to sound more like fanboy wars. Lets not forget that so far games were mostly developed as cross gen titles. The SSD streaming capabilities are obviously much better than XBOX's and we have the devs commenting on that as proof. The subject isnt whether the XBOX has an equally powerful solution, but whether the capability will be taken advantage fully.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Anyways. Its really annoying when every post feels like a subtle snipe at the console platform you don't prefer. This is supposed to be a more disciplined place to talk about technical stuff I thought.

I would argue these new technologies in general aren't a waste for the platforms to invest in just because we haven't seen something overtly transformative that changes the face of the medium. They help with development processes that we can't see significantly and that's totally worth it.

Like I said above if devs haven't fully utilized it yet, it doesn't mean the technologies themselves are marketing fluff. It just means they can't be taken advantage of properly yet.

I'm more willing to believe that because we barely have any major first party exclusive titles in general, let alone ones that try and take advantage of the hardware yet. It's a real problem I think

 

[Remij]

You can only hear so much of how incredible something is before you start demanding to see results.

I believe all the developers who say PS5's I/O allows them to just focus on what's important and rest easy knowing the system has the throughput to handle extremely demanding loads.. That it's easier to develop for.

What I don't believe... is "This is only possible on PS5" , "Nothing else exists that can do this"... And when you ask for examples from fanboys people who do nothing but post that nonsense every time... what can they point to as of yet? Nothing.

Nobody said it wasn't possible to do amazing things on PS5... but some people seemingly just want to hear that something is only possible on Playstation 5.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

That's not a problem with the Xbox hw but a matter of reality for devs not being able to focus on those things for variety of reasons. It's not power of the cloud blast processing nonsense

For the record, I never suggested it was an issue with Xbox hardware. I replied within the context of the original comment's comparison between marketing and actual results we've seen so far.

 

[pjbliverpool]

It [Ratchet] can run fine depending on the PC hardware, as one would hope/expect for a 2 year old game. Still the highest end pc hardware can not match the most i/o dependent section of the game in speed, as Alex demonstrated.

But it has nothing to do with how high end the hardware is.

Beyond a certain level of hardware, the timings are more or less identical. You will get the same result with a 3.5GBs SSD / 3600X / RTX 3060 as you will with a 10GBs SSD / 13900KS / RTX 4090. And it just so happens that that result is pretty much the same as the PS5 load times.

So either there is some other process causing a bottleneck on the PC side that isn't dependent on the raw processing power or throughput of any of the key components in the IO chain, and by an incredible co-incidence it just happens to bottleneck the far more powerful hardware at near exact PS5 timings.

Or....

The developers have applied a limit in the game code on how quickly the sequence can happen - which would absolutely be required to prevent it from breaking on future hardware. And the timing they chose for that limit was roughly the same as the PS5 - for obvious reasons.

People can decide for themselves which scenario is more likely.

It [Tempest 3D audio block] absolutely has [been used].

1. Returnal - Best 3D Audio implementation to date. It also uses RT HW Audio

Worth noting that the PC version features the same 3D audio and requires no hardware based audio unit to achieve it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Worth noting that the PC version features the same 3D audio and requires no hardware based audio unit to achieve it.

Tempest wasn't ever promising anything impossible on PC. It was just an optimised piece of silicon. The issue with Tempest's promise is 3d audio everywhere where it's AFAIK meaningfully present only in a handful of titles, 1-2% of the library. Additionally, the videos people link to demonstrating the HRTF in 2D headphones, such as Returnal videos, aren't in any way 3D to my ears. We're supposed to getting 'holophonic' immersive binaural 3D in loads of games, if the Tempest Engine were being applied as described.

This is relation to I'mDudditz! saying Sony only bragged about their IO. Mark Cerny talking about their audio...

"presence - we mean the feeling that you're actually there you've entered the Matrix"

"we're referring to the hardware unit and the proprietary algorithms we run on it Tempest 3D Audio Tech. The meaning of 3d audio and technology should be pretty obvious here. As for Tempest I feel it really reflects our goals with audio. It suggests a certain intensity of experience and also hints at your presence within it."

"The primary purpose of the tempest engine remains 3d audio."

"Ultimately we're committing to enabling everyone to experience that next level of realism."

That strikes me as bragging. PS5 is going to offer next-gen 3D audio.

 

[Nesh]

You can only hear so much of how incredible something is before you start demanding to see results.

I believe all the developers who say PS5's I/O allows them to just focus on what's important and rest easy knowing the system has the throughput to handle extremely demanding loads.. That it's easier to develop for.

What I don't believe... is "This is only possible on PS5" , "Nothing else exists that can do this"... And when you ask for examples from fanboys who do nothing but post that nonsense every time... what can they point to as of yet? Nothing.

Nobody said it wasn't possible to do amazing things on PS5... but some people seemingly just want to hear that something is only possible on Playstation 5.

I see more people talking about fanboys, than fanboys talking hyperbole. The most common point isnt that the PS5 can do what is not possible, but that it can potentially do it better. At least compared to XBOX Series X.

 

[Remij]

I see more people talking about fanboys, than fanboys talking hyperbole

Ok, let's replace that word with "people"... Do you still have any reply to my post, or is it ok now? It's only certain people who hyperfixate on that word, I've noticed.

 

[Riddlewire]

The original Xbox supported HRTF-based 3D audio.
I have no idea why anyone would bother bragging about it in a 9th gen console.

 

[Globalisateur]

Tempest wasn't ever promising anything impossible on PC. It was just an optimised piece of silicon. The issue with Tempest's promise is 3d audio everywhere where it's AFAIK meaningfully present only in a handful of titles, 1-2% of the library. Additionally, the videos people link to demonstrating the HRTF in 2D headphones, such as Returnal videos, aren't in any way 3D to my ears. We're supposed to getting 'holophonic' immersive binaural 3D in loads of games, if the Tempest Engine were being applied as described.

This is relation to I'mDudditz! saying Sony only bragged about their IO. Mark Cerny talking about their audio...

That strikes me as bragging. PS5 is going to offer next-gen 3D audio.

The problem is HRTF which doesn't work on everybody depending of the ears. PS5 has several modes but even then there is no guarantee you'll find your own HRTF. Because for some it works pretty great.

But now that PS5 supports plenty of different 3D formats finding the right HRTF will be less of a problem.

But I'd say almost all Sony big games do use 3D audio and plenty big multiplat games do. The aim for Cerny was to include a dedicated hardware to encourage devs to create 3d audio that could be processed by Tempest units without stressing the CPU.

 

[Nesh]

Ok, let's replace that word with "people"... Do you still have any reply to my post, or is it ok now? It's only certain people who hyperfixate on that word, I've noticed.

Still the same argument.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

Beyond a certain level of hardware, the timings are more or less identical. You will get the same result with a 3.5GBs SSD / 3600X / RTX 3060 as you will with a 10GBs SSD / 13900KS / RTX 4090. And it just so happens that that result is pretty much the same as the PS5 load times.

No.

Worth noting that the PC version features the same 3D audio and requires no hardware based audio unit to achieve it.

Ok? That's great. What does PC have to do with anything I said about PS5 3D audio implementation? Seems like you want to inject PS5 vs PC comparisons at random here.

 

[davis.anthony]

No.

Neither of those videos has anything to do with what he said.

 

[Remij]

No.

Neither of those videos refutes what he said...

A Gen3 3.5GB/s NVMe performs the same as a Gen 5 NVMe in this particular game currently.

 

[I'mDudditz!]

Neither of those videos refutes what he said...

A Gen3 3.5GB/s NVMe performs the same as a Gen 5 NVMe in this particular game currently.

No, reread what he said, it's not that difficult.

But it has nothing to do with how high end the hardware is.

Beyond a certain level of hardware, the timings are more or less identical. You will get the same result with a 3.5GBs SSD / 3600X / RTX 3060 as you will with a 10GBs SSD / 13900KS / RTX 4090. And it just so happens that that result is pretty much the same as the PS5 load times.

The calibur of hardware matters in determining how close you get to ps5 performance. And I don't consider load times anywhere near identical to PS5 when the videos above are showing significant i/o related framerate drops. Btw, the PC settings above are actually lower than PS5.

 

[davis.anthony]

No, reread what he said, it's not that difficult.



The calibur of hardware matters in determining how close you get to ps5 performance. And I don't consider load times anywhere near identical to PS5 when the videos above are showing significant i/o related framerate drops. Btw, the PC settings above are actually lower than PS5.

So why did you bold this part in your response with the videos?

"You will get the same result with a 3.5GBs SSD / 3600X / RTX 3060 as you will with a 10GBs SSD / 13900KS / RTX 4090"

 

[Remij]

No, reread what he said, it's not that difficult.



The calibur of hardware matters in determining how close you get to ps5 performance. And I don't consider load times anywhere near identical to PS5 when the videos above are showing significant i/o related framerate drops. Btw, the PC settings above are actually lower than PS5.

Nothing. You. Posted. Refutes. What. He. Said.

Reread that a few times.