Raytracing vs Rasterizer (next gen)

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by ultragpu, Jun 21, 2020.

  1. ultragpu

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    So, would you say Horizon Forbidden West is the first example of a non Raytraced next gen game looking better than pretty much all the RT based next gen games? Especially when compared to the most RT utilized title Pragmata when it's using both RT GI and RT Reflection. Ironically people were gaga over RT before the PS5 event but in the end it's the rasterization based game got praised the most in visuals. Sure R&C got mentioned a lot too but seems like HFW got the most praise for being the most impressive next gen title so far.
    I think my prediction is coming true, the overall visual fidelity of using a rasterizer still outweighs RT in the end. GG used all the power on dynamic GI, maximum foliage, geometry density, highest quality of assets, huge scale, fluid dynamic sims like water and cloud, aided all by the super fast SSD streaming in those assets, than putting the power to RT usage. They knew by using RT on reflection, shadow or GI would not nearly get them this much detail and effects. So I think they made the right call here. Game like Pragmata and those heavily RT based games on high end PC now don't look anywhere close to the visual impact Horizon 2 offers here, maybe things would change later on as we see more titles but as it stands I just hope devs don't waste too much resources on RT for next gen console games.
     
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  2. BRiT

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    I have not seen any pure RayTraced games.
     
  3. Shifty Geezer

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    This makes no sense. Please define what you mean by 'RT based'. A game using RTRT hardware for global illumination is still using RTRT. So far, all games are hybrids to some degree except Minecraft, so it's impossible to compare an 'RT based' game to a 'non-RT based' games because such a thing doesn't exist. They all use ray tracing as a technique from AI to lighting to reflections (even if screen-space).

    If your argument is consoles shouldn't have bothered including RTRT hardware as rasterization is more effective, you'll have to wait for several years to see how devs actually use that hardware and if they tell us its advantageous or not.
     
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  4. ultragpu

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    Right, so what I meant by RT based game is a game features at least one RT function that's related to visuals such as reflection, GI, Shadow or AO. It's good that you mentioned Pathtracing Minecraft which is indeed entirely RT based, while it looks good in many ways but essentially its geometry makeover is small blocks without complex animation, deformation, simulation etc to render and with a paltry 1080p resolution.

    I think Minecraft shows a pretty good implication of a fully RTRT based game for next gen consoles, hell it couldn't get any more simpler than rendering Minecraft geometry no matter how you design your engine. Now hybrid engine is fine as long as you only limit to one usage be it reflection or shadow (Demon Souls and Ratchet both still look insane but not as overwhelmingly as Horizon2), however any more usage such as in Pragmata you'll see other areas of visuals take a nose dive. I think all those RT settings should be turned on when midgen consoles arrive while base consoles focus on rasterization to pump out maximum geometry density, high res assets, effects and other things.
     
  5. JoeJ

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    I have to nitpick that rasterization and RT should not be compared or related 'against' each other. This makes little sense although it's hard to avoid such thoughts currently, i admit.

    Personally i expected more form Sonys games reveal. I expected to be shocked, but it did not happen. I'm even a bit disappointed. (but also calmed down about personal reasons which is good :D )
    I think some more time has to pass, and probably we see more constant progress during next gen than we had for this gen. That's something good.

    Well, if this could happen at all, it would not be their fault.
    Maybe the move to HW RT came one generation too early. Personally i still think so.
    But we don't know much yet about AMDs performance or options, and after seeing only the very first games it's too early to judge.
     
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  6. eloyc

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    Were you expecting anything in particular? For most of us, I think the correct word is "pleased": we weren't shocked but we were pleased with the beautiful graphics (and added possibilities) next-gen machines can produce, even if the specs are not extraordinarily high. As in this current generation, the big expectations and the shocked reactions are a thing of the past, honestly. Yes, we may play a game and feel amazed at the graphics, but I don't think this is the feeling that defines a generation anymore.

    Maybe the day when consoles have amazingly powerful CPUs (maybe GPUs, depending on the tech) able to perform real life simulations, fully interactive/destructible levels, etc., we will feel that again.

    Ok, that sounds... weird. Just saying.
     
  7. chris1515

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    How do you know if Horizon is not using some form of raytracing? Wait and see some technological explanation and a deep dive into the game.
     
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  8. ultragpu

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    I was fairly impressed by their showing, the Big Four (Horizon2, Ratchet, Demons Souls and Athia) were the ones really gave me the goosebumps the most but only one, Horizon 2 that truly blew my mind. The first things people get impressed by a game's visuals are dense geometry, that next gen asset quality, density, then the lighting, animation, destruction, reflection etc. Hardly anyone would go out of their way to praise some accurate reflection, AO or Shadow here and there, if they can even spot them without a side by side comparison that is lol. And I think some devs are definitely wasting precious resources on those things yet sacrificing on the main draws. Like body really cared about the only RT heavy game that is Pragmata, that tells you a lot.
    I think GG would have mentioned it by now if it features RT, nor did DF or anyone noticed any evidence of it unless we were all wrong. I'll gladly take the L and re evaluate this whole thing if there was any RT present.
     
  9. Shifty Geezer

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    Speak for yourself! First thing of interest to me is lighting and shadowing. We've had great geometry for years, but haven't had realistic, uniform, consistent, dynamic lighting ever. Lighting hacks are really disruptive in games. Screen space reflections that phase and warp, and AO that sticks dirty halos around objects, are very objectionable. Similarly, great rendering with lousy animation can be really disconcerting.

    You're entitled to your preferences, but please don't try and turn them into objective analysis when its entirely subjective.

    Have they mentioned anything at all about the tech? Is there reason to think GG would ignore the RTRT capabilties and leave that part of the silicon idle?
     
  10. iroboto

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    If you don’t mind me quoting you
    What do you think the recent inclusion and push towards RT is supposed to solve?

    RT is everything to do with light transport.

    it’s is the hardest thing to accomplish. Lighting and shadow computations require the most computational power which is why we’ve never done it until now.

    you are truly all over the place with your opinions to the point of contradictory.
     
    #10 iroboto, Jun 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
  11. Xbat

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    This is exactly the point I was making in some previous thread. I think it was me moaning about the hair in Pragmata.
    Also I wouldn't be to sure that Guerrilla isn't using some form of Ray tracing.
     
  12. JoeJ

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    Yeah i expected wonders that make me stop working on GI and jumping out of the window. So it was more personal anxiety than concrete expections, tbh. Just to explain my POV.

    I remember i was more impressed at PS4 launch. Killzone with PBR and all those new screenspace tricks was mind blowing.
    But yeah, it's ok i think. Impressing people with better gfx becomes harder and harder, and what they've shown is definitively good stuff.
    UE5 has stolen the show, that's also a big factor.

    Personally i think most promising opportunity of progress is character simulation. That's interesting and has no unpractical power requirements.

    Destruction is difficult, though. Currently it's mostly precomputed fragments, which is already demanding extra work for both content creation and tools development.
    At runtime it causes spikes in physics simulation, so it makes sense to have a low quality simulator, which is contrary to our expectations of 'real life simulation'. Having more CPU cores would not change this - we would still try to saturate them, so no easy way to handle such extra runtime spikes.
    And finally, if we had a game where you can destruct absolutely everything, what does this mean for level design?
    So i think it will remain a cosmetical feature for most games, but we'll see.
     
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  13. Xbat

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    I think you misunderstand Ultragpu in that he doesn't have anything against Ray tracing but that the hardware isn't up to it yet so it might not be worth it.

    I had similar feelings but seeing some first year games with it seems like it's got promise this upcoming generation.
     
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  14. mpg1

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    I think accurate lighting/shadows/reflections is one of those things that you don't know how much it makes a difference until it's there.
     
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  15. ultragpu

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    I'm not dissing RT per se, I fully understand the benefit it could bring but imagine you use a full suite of RT functions in Ratchet, the kind of sacrifices it has to make would be mind boggling. The gulf in visuals between the CGI and the game would be much bigger, you are basically looking at PS2 level geometry makeup for the whole level not to mention reduced animation, effects etc everywhere else too. When the consoles are strong enough to handle RT while rendering a res far above 1080p and uncompromised in other areas that would be the most ideal. A 20TF+ machine perhaps? But now I just think hardware RT is a flashy marketing gimmick that doesn't add much on base hardware, because you're pretty much limited to only one RT effect without majorly compromise other graphics. It's like you can market 4k and RT for a game even though there's only one RT effect but when you have two or more RT effects, suddenly you can't market 4k any more, it'd be 1440p or lower and that would look worse on paper at least. Tho admittedly I think lower res or CBR in tandem with multiple RT effects would be a far better choice, I'm surprised Sony aren't doing this right now.
     
  16. BRiT

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    Lay off the hyperboles. You're not doing yourself or your viewpoint any favors by being so out of touch. They make it impossible to take anything you say seriously. It turns your entire posts into the ramblings of a mad nan.
     
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  17. DavidGraham

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    Don't judge a game from a trailer, which is designed to show you the best shots, judge it from actual gameplay wandering around the environment, that's where the defects in static GI start to show, that's where the SSR reflections become painful and lacking and where the shadow maps reveal just how lacking they are at doing 100% shadow coverage.
     
  18. JoeJ

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    I guess we can assume the first games when switching to a new generation use still the existing engines and workflows, so increasing resolution is the first way to utilize more power. The shown games did this, increased details, and they also have RT running beside that, which proofs RT works good enough.
    After some time i expect resolutions to go down (using whatever tricks like CB or upscaling) and IQ to go up.
    Some games also have RT effects at half resolution, so there already is compromise as you suggest.
    Looking at the cost of SSGI effects like McFly SSRT the performance hit is huge there too, but without a chance to get correct and stable results. (Though i suspect Horizon uses SSGI maybe, remembering the crabs)

    There surely is no reason to worry about things like 'reducing geometric detail just to support RT' to happen in general. If this would be necessary, the devs would still aim to find the best compromise pleasing the people to sell games.
    Even if they go into extremes here, the results could be interesting, both about rendering and how people react.
    I have my own doubts about HW RT, mostly about questions of LOD and 'can it replace damn shadowmaps'. But even if neither works, it's still fine for reflections up to at a limited distance for example. Everybody will come up with something useful - we have to deal with limitations all the time.

    Actually ROPs are at least as questionable as RT cores are, if we take UE5 as example. There is the point when fixed function HW is no longer necessary, there is a point when new fixed function stuff makes sense. But it's hard to tell when.
     
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  19. iroboto

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    First off, I wouldn't use any launch title as a measure of what's possible much later in the generation.
    You wrote in the title of this tread, raytracing vs rasterizer; but it's like you fail to realize that both are completely different rendering methods that could not be further apart. One is fast 2D drawing of a 3d approximation of what things should like, the other mimics physical light transport.

    You are failing to recognize the apples and oranges comparison here; airplanes and rockets both fly. But only rockets will take you to the moon.

    That means everything you learned about airplanes don't apply to rockets. To get RT to work, new techniques and methods and processes, workflows and tools need to be developed. Engines may need entire rebuilds, or whole new engines may need to be developed.
    new hardware will likely be developed.

    TF isn't what is needed to solve RT. They tried that, it doesn't work. We need RT specific solutions to solve RT.
    If all you got i to brute force this problem using TF, you'll need a whole lot more than 20.
    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ne9bbm/star-wars-nvidia-dxr-demo-gdc

    you whine about RT performance without recognizing that the current GPUs are 20 some odd years of pure rasterization innovation after innovation.

    Just because something is labelled as a GPU; doesn’t mean it’s great at solving all graphics problems.
     
    #19 iroboto, Jun 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
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  20. Rodéric

    Rodéric a.k.a. Ingenu
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    Truthfully ray tracing and rasterizing can be roughly seen as two loops in reversed order:
    for each objet in the scene
    for each pixel it touches
    do stuff

    for each pixel on screen
    for each object in the scene
    do stuff

    Path tracing, bidirectional path tracing, photon mapping and the likes are about light transport.
     
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