PS3 Firmware 3.50

[jeff_rigby]

I thought they changed the update mechanism quite a while ago ?

Yap, I think charging for the webkit browser is ok.

Yes they could charge for it but they won't. It's a tool necessary for Advertising and playing WebGL games. The effort spent in updating the forums as well as the Blog is an indication for that thought process.

Yes a browser is coming in the next few months (that can be stretched to 4-5). The flavor of Webkit Browser we get has not been determined. Nor has Android, widget ability, Widgets on the desktop, Javascript in the XMB (as a UI in a particular section of the XMB).

I do now believe that the PS4 will be cell based given the published patent for a 4 element SPU cell and how it could be used. Just as a wild guess three of the 4 element SPU cells could be in a PS4 . That gives us 3 Power PC processors and 12 SPUs.

The above said, distributed processing and the coming OS changes in the PS3 will be the basis for the PS4.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I do now believe that the PS4 will be cell based given the published patent for a 4 element SPU cell and how it could be used. Just as a wild guess three of the 4 element SPU cells could be in a PS4 . That gives us 3 Power PC processors and 12 SPUs.

The patent doesn't make sense for PS4, and wasn't intended really for a single device. 3PPUs + 12 SPUs will happily fit on a single die and be a lot more efficient than three seperate dies connected by some bus. The patent is a means for providing transparent processing across discrete devices.

 

[patsu]

Yes they could charge for it but they won't. It's a tool necessary for Advertising and playing WebGL games. The effort spent in updating the forums as well as the Blog is an indication for that thought process.

I won't rule out charging for WebKit browser. It won't stop free applications from using JavaScript core. The standalone WebKit browser is only used for surfing. However, I hope Sony gives us a way to expand the PS3 memory so that the browser can render a few complex web pages quickly.

Advertising fees will be collected by the site owners, not Sony. Playing WebGL games is a loss of revenue for Sony (compared to buying PSN games). That's why it's important for Sony to make amazing PS3 games so people can tell the differences between free/cheap games and exclusively made ones.

EDIT: Btw, the new Jive forum is operational now. In typical Sony fashion, they did not tell their users what the tangible benefits are (and show us, like Steve Jobs usually does). They only told us it's going to be great and new features are coming. As expected, some people are lost. ^_^

Caused a little stir because people can't find their favorite forums and threads following the old link and navigation path.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The patent doesn't make sense for PS4, and wasn't intended really for a single device. 3PPUs + 12 SPUs will happily fit on a single die and be a lot more efficient than three seperate dies connected by some bus. The patent is a means for providing transparent processing across discrete devices.

The patent as you stated is for distributed processing, DRM across networks and as a Add-on to perhaps the PS3.

With economy of scale the 4 SPU cell will come down in price and with two more PPUs many of the issues with "the cell is not designed to provide more general CPU functions" go away. One cell CPU in a GPU die, one in a support die (Network, IO) and one as the central processor. All connected to a common memory with the ability to co-process-distributed processing. This I think would be more efficient as control of slower IO should not be bound by or bound the common memory. Think of all three Cells with their backs to memory facing the world. Slower IO functions that require a SPU to idle would not affect other SPUs or the main PPU memory access.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I won't rule out charging for WebKit browser. It won't stop free applications from using JavaScript core. The standalone WebKit browser is only used for surfing. However, I hope Sony gives us a way to expand the PS3 memory so that the browser can render a few complex web pages quickly.

Advertising fees will be collected by the site owners, not Sony. Playing WebGL games is a loss of revenue for Sony (compared to buying PSN games). That's why it's important for Sony to make amazing PS3 games so people can tell the differences between free/cheap games and exclusively made ones.

EDIT: Btw, the new Jive forum is operational now. In typical Sony fashion, they did not tell their users what the tangible benefits are (and show us, like Steve Jobs usually does). They only told us it's going to be great and new features are coming. As expected, some people are lost. ^_^

Caused a little stir because people can't find their favorite forums and threads following the old link and navigation path.

No cut and paste and no spell check using Chrome. No editing or intermittent editing of older posts. Navigation issues could be corrected with a site map. I like that they have table, video, audio, spreadsheet insert ability but without cut and paste those are not usable so I expect cut and paste not working is a bug or support issue if the web site is defaulting to the old Netfront browser's javascript support.

Perhaps you haven't seen any WebGL games. They are similar to first generation PS3 or Xbox games in performance. The Adobe Air 3D demo (Hardware acceleration supported) I saw was similar to Burnout Paradise. This is driving javascript engine development. The timetable for this would be it starts middle 2011 with games advancing in complexity till they hit a hardware limit in 2 years then the PS4 is released.

As games advance so does internet performance driven by the media streaming demand. Distributed processing would allow a 4 SPU cell in a TV to play games near the performance of a PS3 given at least one other Sony "Cell" product on the home network.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The patent as you stated is for distributed processing, DRM across networks and as a Add-on to perhaps the PS3.

IT IS NOT AN ADD-ON FOR PS3! The patent describes a hardware feature of a processor that needs a massive connecting bus to function as a processing extension. There's nothing about the PS3 that enables this - it's original Cell lacks the dual-channel IO interface hardware, and it has no external bus that can support the patent's suggest 60 GB/s communications systems. This rumour needs to die.

With economy of scale the 4 SPU cell will come down in price and with two more PPUs many of the issues with "the cell is not designed to provide more general CPU functions" go away. One cell CPU in a GPU die, one in a support die (Network, IO) and one as the central processor. All connected to a common memory with the ability to co-process-distributed processing. This I think would be more efficient...

It can't be. you'll never have an external interconnect capable of running as fast as on-chip communications. Three seprrate dies will communicate with each other an order of magnitude slower than on the same die, and memory access will be less efficient if they're having to manage memory access in three places instead of just one. The only way your proposed idea would make sense is if there's a reason to have a GPU with embedded Cell, such as for a common graphics engine. But that prescribes the same GPU for all devices, which doesn't make sense as GPU requirements vary considerably. It makes far more sense to have separate 4-SPU Cells connected up with whatever GPU is suitably to that device, and then use the patent to combine these Cell across devices. If you need more than that 4 SPU chip in numbers needed for a console, it makes more sense to have them all on one chip, in exactly the same way we have multicore chips for a reason!

 

[patsu]

Perhaps you haven't seen any WebGL games. They are similar to first generation PS3 or Xbox games in performance. The Adobe Air 3D demo (Hardware acceleration supported) I saw was similar to Burnout Paradise. This is driving javascript engine development. The timetable for this would be it starts middle 2011 with games advancing in complexity till they hit a hardware limit in 2 years then the PS4 is released.

The browser run-time will eat up extra memory, especially if you have multiple pages opened. I think native PS3 games can access the GPU directly. The AIR WebGL demo you saw runs on a PC ? The hardware setup is very different.

 

[patsu]

...

It's a very interesting patent not because of the specific mechanism, but the general idea of applying distributed computing concepts to Home consoles. The full SMP-type set up will not be practical with the current hardware, but it may be possible to go "half way". The key problem is incremental cost. We should just wait for Sony to say something, if ever.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It's a very interesting patent not because of the specific mechanism, but the general idea of applying distributed computing concepts to Home consoles. The full SMP-type set up will not be practical with the current hardware, but it may be possible to go "half way". The key problem is incremental cost. We should just wait for Sony to say something, if ever.

Yes, a PS3 modified motherboard to accept a daughter board with a direct connection to the Rambuss memory. Equals a PS3.5. As to upgrading a current PS3, too many custom wired connections unless an unpopulated chip attach point is a future upgrade we don't know about.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The browser run-time will eat up extra memory, especially if you have multiple pages opened. I think native PS3 games can access the GPU directly. The AIR WebGL demo you saw runs on a PC ? The hardware setup is very different.

You will only have only one Stage open with a game, to use Adobe's description of the process. The entire browser is not needed, only the javascript engine. You also have a server doing some of the game processing.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Cell patent talk moved here.

 

[patsu]

You will only have only one Stage open with a game, to use Adobe's description of the process. The entire browser is not needed, only the javascript engine. You also have a server doing some of the game processing.

A browser webpage can be pretty huge, if Sony allows arbitrary HTML pages to show.

Try to open the regular PC YouTube page on the PS3 web browser and see how it stalls. Then switch back to YouTube's TV page and see how it flies. The web pages have to be authored in certain way for smaller memory devices.

I suspect a WebGL game for devices will have to be written somewhat differently.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

We've always found the Ce device YouTube page to be buggy, and revert to the full view that works okay, although the search box is buggy.

 

[patsu]

You mean youtube.com/tv ? It works quite well over here now. There was a period when Sony messed up the JavaScript engine (and it would crash).

The PC Youtube page doesn't work as reliably on the PS3 web browser (e.g., Play Queue doesn't work at all, some graphics may not load). The video playback runs well since it's in a separate SPU. However the ads may have varying experience since they are served from different ad providers. They may hold up the video playback.

 

[jeff_rigby]

A browser webpage can be pretty huge, if Sony allows arbitrary HTML pages to show.

Try to open the regular PC YouTube page on the PS3 web browser and see how it stalls. Then switch back to YouTube's TV page and see how it flies. The web pages have to be authored in certain way for smaller memory devices.

I suspect a WebGL game for devices will have to be written somewhat differently.

The LARGER browser pages will be in GDDR3 memory so that does not create an issue. Far from creating issues I believe a WebGL game might use less memory.

I think we are looking at WebGL games incorrectly. Think of it as a PS3 game using Open GL calls just so that it's platform independent with multi-players over the internet. It will only use a Javascript engine to be platform independent. There will have to be a standard for the engine and display and that appears to be WEBKIT and Open GL. Thus Sony ported a Webkit Open GL (Cairo/Posix) javascript engine to the PS3. Cairo uses OpenGL as the backend.

WebGL games will come in several flavors, the one we are most used to will be purchased from the PSN store, will be 1-2 gigs in size (textures and graphics) and will have a small purchase price but will require a server so it will have a monthly fee. Then there will also be totally on-line WebGL games with weaker graphics.

The key in all this is multi-platform and larger customer base thus more income. There will be WebGL games for all platforms. Multiple payment plans and models...Monthly fee, by the minute, free for some platforms (hook) but charges for the same game on other platforms.

 

[patsu]

If it's cross platform, the games will likely have a different experience depending on the target platforms. Angry Bird on cellphones vs Uncharted 3 on PS3.

 

[jeff_rigby]

If it's cross platform, the games will likely have a different experience depending on the target platforms. Angry Bird on cellphones vs Uncharted 3 on PS3.

Or Chess on the PS3 vs. Chess on Cellphones. Or Monopoly on the PS3 and Monopoly on an ipad. It of course depends on the game. The experience should be identical across platforms.

Angry birds is coming to the PS3.....Uncharted 3 will likely never play on a cellphone.

 

[patsu]

That is what I meant exactly.

 

[jeff_rigby]

That is what I meant exactly.

Oh, OK. I was pointing out that some games would have identical experiences on multiple platforms, some can't. Angry birds can be identical and be at 1080P on the PS3 and 340 by 280 on a cellphone using the same calls to OpenGL javascript.

Someone tried to start a new thread on "PS3 firmware updates and on our suggestions for the future and also a place to discuss on everything related to the PS3's firmware."

I'm the only one who appears to believe that Sony programmers chose to number this version 3.5 for a reason as it's a pivotal release for Sony. We now know it contains a Webkit HTML5 javascript engine, the first of an on-going port of a HTML5 WebGL Webkit to the PS3. It also contains support for Flash 3.5 streams which might or might not indicate Air 2.5 for TV or a Flash lite product for at least the DRM. I believe that Adobe chose the "5" in Air 2.5 and Flash Server 3.5 to indicate support for HTML5. I believe Sony programmers chose 3.5 to indicate support for Flash 3.5 media server streams.

Flash Media server 3.5 streams support HTML5, adaptive streaming, Ultraviolet DRM, Social networking and Commercial support.

The HTML5 javascript engine and Flash server 3.5 support were necessary for multiple IPTV and commercial media streaming services like Netflix, Hulu and Vudu. Hulu, Mubi and BBC iplayer will be supporting social media and or commercials using the support now in the PS3.

Tools in a webkit browser can be used by other applications in a PS3. So we now can speculate on what other uses the tools in 3.5 may have for the PS3. We also have firmware 3.55 which if the numbering scheme used by Sony did indicate more HTML5 or webkit features were in that update, we could have the following:

If we have an on-going port of Google Chrome's version of a webkit, the tools in it can be used as soon as they are compiled. Flash 10.1 is a part of Chrome and that code may be in Sony hands now. Routines in it include echo cancellation which is sorely needed for the PS3 Video Chat.

Over the next few months we will probably see changes to the PS3 that are taking advantage of the tools in 3.5 or as I said, to support the coming webkit browser.

Patsu and I have mentioned several uses on and in the XMB but I expect that requires another update with changes to the XMB and PS3 OS to allow this. Those changes and others will be necessary to support a Webkit browser so they are coming in any case.

The Email from Geoff Levand, the Sony Software "Engineer" in charge of the Webkit port project said in closing: "you will see more webkit ports in the coming months." If we are getting multiple on-going ports of webkit, they will show up in the required GNU license disclosure. Only Flash 10.1 ports may not show up.

This same Geoff Levand was the Software engineer in charge of the Linux port to the PS3.

Beyond new features in the PS3, Media stream 3.5 features will probably play a large part in the 10X increase in PSN revenues over the next 1+ years.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Updating to 3.56 to play online, I'm thinking, when was the last time Sony did a FW update that gave us gamers anything we want? It's all been media and TV channels and mostly security fixes. They've basically given up on gamers and are just leaving it as is, aren't they.