PS3: Phil Harrison addresses the real-time vs CGI issue

[MechanizedDeath]

Didn't deano say only half of its real time ? Anyway the game is impressive but u cna see when it leaves cgi to real time and then back again

Did he now? This is how these rumors about Sony lying get started in the first place, b/c no one fact-checks anymore. The search function works wonders:

The trailer was made by selecting a bunch of in-game moves/cool things, Then those frames making up those bits were output at 1080p from the engine. These are then all stuck together in a editing and post-processing package to look like a movie trailer.

But fundementally the 'renderer' itself was in-game, so you can see the shadow issues in certain frame where the in-game shadow map resolution optimiser doesn't do its job.

So in all fairness its not quite as black and white as either real-time or CGI...

*cough* You were saying? Come on man, this is the next-gen. GoW looks awesome. The rendered video of Ghost Recon 3 looked awesome. Why can't a Sony game look awesome too? Heavenly Sword rocks the box. If that's gonna happen in first-gen, I don't see why Killzone 2 won't either. PEACE.

EDIT: And this is the highest compliment to Deano's game, b/c you think part of it is CG. Self-ownage is a thing of beauty.

 

[Josh378]

The thing is . If sony cgi stuff ms would have blown us all away and now sony is playing the evasive person game and isn't fully answering questions so that when games don't live up to what they showed they can say well they were renderes with in game assets rendered to spec and we never said they were real

Well they can't do that anyway...thanks to the G4 interview...

-Josh378

 

[Goragoth]

Thanks Geeforcer, I just looked at some screenshots for The Getaway at IGN and it looks much more in line with what I would expect real games to look like on the PS3, especially the early ones. If you can't see the huge difference in the quality of the geometry, shading, lighting and texturing between this and the KillZone pics then I can't help you. Sure there'll be stuff that looks better than The Getaway but not by that much.

 

[jvd]

cough* You were saying? Come on man, this is the next-gen. GoW looks awesome. The rendered video of Ghost Recon 3 looked awesome. Why can't a Sony game look awesome too? Heavenly Sword rocks the box. If that's gonna happen in first-gen, I don't see why Killzone 2 won't either. PEACE.

RIght its not full real time either . Its basicly saying its the engine but we pumped it up over what it can do in real time . You can see when it goes back to realistic means and when it goes out of it .

You can take the mario 64 engine and add 20k polygons to each object in the game up the res and up the texture quality and still call it the game engine .

See what i'm getting at ?


I have no doubt it will look really great but i'm doubtfull of the amount of characters in those shots and him telling us its not as black and white as a render or real time

 

[Acert93]

Did he now? This is how these rumors about Sony lying get started in the first place, b/c no one fact-checks anymore.

Not necessarily. We have 3 different quotes on the Killzone issue in a PR thread. They affirmed it was ingame assets rendered to the PS3 specs and that home users would be playing this when directly accessed if PS3 owners would be able to play games that looked just like what was shown. They were very clear they were rendered to the PS3 spec.

Similarly, EA is on record as saying that Next Gen Madden will look better than the video shown.

The cool thiing is this stuff is on record. We win either way: They either get hung by their own words OR we get the games we are being promised.

Preferably we get the games we are promised! 8) If KZ plays half as good as it looks I will get a PS3. Unfortunately this is rarely the case. That is why we have games like WoW that are not technically advanced (just great art) kicking butt. There is no replacement for good gamplay. Well, a sweet KZ movie would hold me over for 2 hrs. But after the first viewing I would be bored... I pay $50 for a game and $300 for a console for a reason!

 

[MechanizedDeath]

RIght its not full real time either . Its basicly saying its the engine but we pumped it up over what it can do in real time . You can see when it goes back to realistic means and when it goes out of it .

You can take the mario 64 engine and add 20k polygons to each object in the game up the res and up the texture quality and still call it the game engine .

See what i'm getting at ?


I have no doubt it will look really great but i'm doubtfull of the amount of characters in those shots and him telling us its not as black and white as a render or real time

You're totally digging a hole here. DeanoC said nothing about "pumped it up over what it can do in real time". I don't want to call you a liar, but read the quote again and tell me with a straight face that's what he said. He said they outputed at 1080p, which he later mentions runs REALTIME for the indoor stages already, and choppily for the outdoor. He said it's sent to post-processing to make it look like a CG movie, but did he say anything about altering the actual graphics? Post-process means adding stuff like edit cuts and motion blur. You want to tell me that's gonna account for the game's beauty? Now you're clearly running damage control, jvd. Not suprising. At least I'm not making excuses for GoW and GR3, eventhough the beautiful GR3 vid (the long one with the tank) has been noted to be a concept render. But I have no problem with that b/c I expect the final product to at least come close if not match it. I'm willing to wait for them to be proven wrong rather than assuming they're lying first. A difference in philosophy.

Thanks Geeforcer, I just looked at some screenshots for The Getaway at IGN and it looks much more in line with what I would expect real games to look like on the PS3, especially the early ones. If you can't see the huge difference in the quality of the geometry, shading, lighting and texturing between this and the KillZone pics then I can't help you. Sure there'll be stuff that looks better than The Getaway but not by that much.

Do you even know what they were demoing with that Getaway demo? Realize it was realtime, but it wasn't exactly a game demo. It was a Cell demo to show how you can bring a city to life. I actually think it was supposed to showcase potential uses for AI more than anything. I'll rewatch the presser to be sure, but it wasn't really a graphics demo. And besides, KZ2 and Getaway are different types of games, so different types of engines. It's like comparing MoH and GTA. One's an FPS, one's a free-roaming carjacker.

Acert: Yes, we all win in the long run. I have no problem roasting Phil for lying, b/c when you go on record on tv like that, you better expect people to hold you to your word. No vague quotes or interviews or lost links here. His words are forever etched in 1's and 0's. PEACE.

 

[jvd]

You're totally digging a hole here. DeanoC said nothing about "pumped it up over what it can do in real time". I don't want to call you a liar, but read the quote again and tell me with a straight face that's what he said.

The trailer was made by selecting a bunch of in-game moves/cool things, Then those frames making up those bits were output at 1080p from the engine. These are then all stuck together in a editing and post-processing package to look like a movie trailer.

But fundementally the 'renderer' itself was in-game, so you can see the shadow issues in certain frame where the in-game shadow map resolution optimiser doesn't do its job.

So in all fairness its not quite as black and white as either real-time or CGI...

If you split the demo into 2 sections (interior and exterior), the interior runs real-time quite happily at 1080p. The exterior struggles a bit but more because we just kept adding more and more till it looked right without going through various optimisation passes then anything else (i.e. the flags are really expensive at the moment due to a quick implementation

As he said its a little more complicated than real time or cgi .

 

[mckmas8808]

jvd, not answering questions. The damn man answered the question directly in front of millions of people.

 

[jvd]

*cough* You were saying? Come on man, this is the next-gen. GoW looks awesome. The rendered video of Ghost Recon 3 looked awesome. Why can't a Sony game look awesome too? Heavenly Sword rocks the box. If that's gonna happen in first-gen, I don't see why Killzone 2 won't either. PEACE.

Gow is in real time and people have played it . Who played killzone ? who played heavenly sword ? who played any games shown at sonys presentation ?

I'm sorry but elder scrolls and gow were both playable and both breath taking .

If sony has playable killzone by the end of the e3 event with the same quality as the clips they showed then I will admit and put it in my sig that I was wrong .

 

[Kolgar]

Well, mckmas8808, that's all well and good, but at the end of the day I doubt it means much. Politicians mislead people all the time, you know, and they're in a business that puts a much higher price on ethics (or SHOULD, anyway).

At the end of the day, it seems clear to me that much of the PS3 game footage we saw was a mix of realtime and CGI. It's encouraging to note that it was all done "to spec" and that we are in fact being promised these kinds of visuals in the actual games. But only time will tell if this will really happen.

Meanwhile, take heart in the confirmed realtime stuff - the Doc Ock demo, the Fight Night footage, the UT engine, and others. We KNOW that stuff is real, and if PS3 can do that, then we're gonna be lovin' life no matter what.

 

[mckmas8808]

Hey jvd its on. Everybody please record it so this non sense can be over. This is the worst hate that I have ever seen against a Sony videogame. Please record the show everybody.

 

[Acert93]

Hey jvd its on. Everybody please record it so this non sense can be over. This is the worst hate that I have ever seen against a Sony videogame. Please record the show everybody.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23144

There are 2 other confirmations from Sony (another from Phil and one from Jan-Bart), recorded by game journalists, that Killzone's E3 footage is representative of the final game. All we need to do now is wait and see if it is true. The nonesense will be over when the game releases. So far we have already established it was not rendered in realtime... the question is more of whether Sony's PR, stating the final product will look the same, is true.

No G4 TV spot can guarantee that one way or the other.

 

[jvd]

Hey jvd its on. Everybody please record it so this non sense can be over. This is the worst hate that I have ever seen against a Sony videogame. Please record the show everybody.

yup what i'm talking about is at the end of the show though so almost 2am est my eeek

 

[mckmas8808]

No jvd its coming up now!!!!! It this very minute. I'm looking at it now.

 

[jvd]

dude : Was it real

vp jack : its def real , we are pretty good at keeping sectrets , we want everyone to understand its game play , we were really good with getting dev kits out there

There is another interview with morgan web where they say exactly whta i type at the end of this .

So there are two conflicting reports . Lets see who the other guy is


btw i quickly typed what i heard . I don't have a tivo set up here . The question is who did morgan interview as i believe he is part of the killzone team

 

[mckmas8808]

Its not conflicting they both said the samething. They both said that its real. Im glad jvd that you now realize what me and some others were trying to say.

 

[jvd]

Its not conflicting they both said the samething. They both said that its real. Im glad jvd that you now realize what me and some others were trying to say.

No one said it was rendered to specs .

I saw it and heard it myself . Watch for when morgan comes up . Because this wasn't morgan and some guy with the vp .

 

[Geeforcer]

For crying out loud, can we move on now?

Issue: How will KZ3 look like compared to the video?

Sony Saz: "Yes, it will"

Others Say: "No, it will not"

Resolution: Pending until the game comes out.

 

[zidane1strife]

And let's make this clear, I'm not willing to downplay the next gen consoles, or Guerilla or you guys. It's just that these two trailers are so far beyond what's possible to render in real time that it's going to set impossibly high expectations if someone believes them to be real. And I despise Sony for using people's lack of insight to their advantage.

up.

Kevin P. on G4 said that if Sony could make the Killzone demo in real-time that Xbox 360 would be doomed. Do you agree Laa-Yosh and Dr. Evil?

Maybe, but since it ain't going to happen it' a moot point, by the way did you see that Getaway link I posted?. I'm sure we are going to see similar drop in quality for Killzone and Motor Storm when they get released, sad thing about it is that you and people like you are probably still going to claim that it looks the same as those prerendered movies, you guys just don't understand that those kind of visual are not possible on PS3 and on top of that use farm boy logic to argue with people who know lot more than you about computer graphics...It's disgusting!. On that note I must say that I myself don't know too much about that, but even I know for sure, that those games are not going to look like that when they are coming out. And I trust 100% more people who know about computer graphics and who are not biased in any way, than Sony executive who is waging a war against an enemy. And to say otherwise sounds really bizarre to me.

Just because execs say something, doesn't mean its true. Need I remind everyone of the Xbox Raven "demo"? First, we were debating if it was real-time. Eventually, everyone agreed that it was pre-rendered and the debate shifted to where it is a "good approximation" of console’s abilities. In the end, it became clear that the demo was quite a bit beyond the hardware capabilities.

Besides the guys saying it's real... IIRC, two devs have already said the demos are certainly achievable, and an accurate representation of what they think can be achieved. Yeah, I know it's hard to believe and even our own Deano had to twist the demo by representing something that won't even approach the final product

I agree with MechanizedDeath, the heavenly sword demo's quite close to the killzone one(at least the high-rez vid)... at least IMHO. And the high-rez final fight, is definitely beyond anything I'd seen in realtime, it's characters qualitatively are beyond any psx fmv char I've seen, and they look almost photo-real(geometry is also super...).

The RSX only demos given by the Nvidia guy are also right there quality-wise, IMO.

And if these demos are indeed done to spec, I'd imagine verts/particles/physics/textures are basically ingame(heavenly swords, leaves demo, nv demos, gas station demo, leave me with little doubt it's possible), IQ/lightning/motion blurring may be enhanced.

Now my question is are you guys seeing a low rez vid or a high-rez one? Cause low rez can make it seem more cgish... b

PS
From the realtime demos I saw, and the high-rez heavenly sword vid, I'd have to agree with the dev.s none of those "concepts" seem out of the question. We've yet to see the combined might of the Cell+RSX, what features the RSX brings, how's the synergy.... but in the end I'm left with just these words: maybe there's a reason it's called a miracle machine...

 

[Acert93]

Its not conflicting they both said the samething. They both said that its real. Im glad jvd that you now realize what me and some others were trying to say.

I do not have a TV so can you get:

1. TV show name
2. Interviewer name
3. Interviewer question verbatim
4. Sony Rep name
5. Sony rep answer verbatim

None of this "they both said that its real". I want to keep track of the PR 8)