Playstation 3 e3 thread 3

[Laa-Yosh]

I'm not trying to discredit you or anything, just wanted to post observations of very obvious flaws in that KZ footage that shouldn't be there if it was prerendered. I mentioned shadow glitches and tons of missing shadows (even the basic ones of the characters on the ground) or geometry popup. My best guess is that studio was farmed out to develop models, textures and animation for the whole thing, with imposed limitations (512MB memory restrictions, etc), but the 'rendering' of the produced scene was done using the devkit hardware itself, the same way Deano explained they rendered their own game using in-engine footage or the same way they demonstrated Final Fantasy movie scene being rendered in real time few years ago, with scaled down shaders and assets.

Last time, then ignore on.
They did the whole f***ing thing themselves.

All the glitches you see are probably results of rushed production (they've been working night and day before E3) and compositing errors. See, CGI is rendered in layers and passes and then put together in a compositing app like After Effects or Digital Fusion.

Proof that motor storm is realtime would be to look at the screenshots and notice craploads of obvious aliasing, clipping, faked temporal motion blur and just overal realtime-looking rendering all over the place.

Most CGI uses fake motion blur, as not many studios can afford PRMan. This also tends to introduce aliasing problems.

Also, as KZ is prerendered, it's safe to assume that other game demos are too.

 

[ninelven]

Also, as KZ is prerendered, it's safe to assume that other game demos are too.

Why?

 

[robert_H]

Last time, then ignore on.
They did the whole f***ing thing themselves.

nyugi LY, az emberi hulyeseg nem ismer hatarokat)

if he wants to believe in that its realtime, let him do so! let him go and buy the console basing his opinion on marketing. everybody who is really that naiv, deserves that.

 

[version]

szélmalomharcot vivsz , ha hinni akarnak hisznek az emberek

killzone and motorstrom are rendered ,but will be realtime

 

[Acert93]

So, what are the confirmed xbox360 non prerendered demos then, versus PS3 non-prerendered demos?

Can you list 100% sure what in MS conference were actual xbox360 footage?

Realtime: Gears of War, Quake 4, Condemend, PDZ, NBA 2K6 (although they showed near nothing but a single player and cloth animation), Kameo, CoD2 (which looked much better than the MTV spot), Tony Hawk; I also believe DoA4

CGI: Madden (EA claims it will look even better), The Darkness, Godfather

Unknown: PGR3, NFS, Ghost Recon, Saints Row, Full Auto, Tiger Woods

If not, then why you keep pushing it here???

Because it was confirmed a while back that a number of the Sony videos were CGI yet certain people want to dismiss it and say "KZ was awesome MIRACLE MACHINE" blah blah blah?

Of course when Xbox 360 was shown it was "All the good stuff was fake!" Which is not true. GoW looks just like the IQ in UT2007.

What Sony did better was 1. show quality tech demos (MS did none) 2. only show good quality stuff and 3. almost all CGI

MS showed some CGI, a bit of ingame; they also showed the good and the bad. Big mistake. Should have only showed CGI and the top 3 or 4 games imo.

And having read every post in both threads, the Xbox keeps coming up because guys here keep going "All the Xbox games suck, the PS3 games look so much better... KillZone was real time, this or that was real time" etc...

Having watched the Sony presentation they seemed to be quick to say what was CELL and what was RSX and what was realtime--at that, I take it EVERYTHING not mentioned to be one of those was not realtime. ANd so far that seems about right.

Like I said before... I will wait until we see real software running on both FINAL machines before I start making judgements.

 

[version]

pff

 

[Alejux]

Also, as KZ is prerendered, it's safe to assume that other game demos are too.

UT2007 had practically the same rendering quality as KZ, and it was in realtime. FXII tech demo also had an amazing IQ and it was in realtime. Plus you have Fight Night , the duck thing, the London scene in Getaway and a lot of other little things that were done in realtime which pretty much says that having that KZ and the other demos done in realtime is NO impossible feat.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

KZ has ambient occlusion, which is totally impossible to do in realtime at this time. Hint: full scene raytracing required.

Edit: I could also list a bunch of other important differences but as long as it's totally in vain, I'm not gonna waste my time...

 

[rabidrabbit]

Groznyi grad, vi pravda â zckpyknizev blobba

 

[ninelven]

UT2007 had practically the same rendering quality as KZ

Well you could see the polys in the Unreal demo and prettymuch every other realtime demo for both ps3 and 360. In KZ, the scope was perfect, the guy's head was perfect, etc... While I would certainly love to see that kind of quality next-gen, I doubt we will.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

Would you guys mind keeping it to english? I could start spouting off in spanish with smilies following my post, but I figured it would be rather impolite.

Nite_Hawk

 

[DigitalSoul]

We are getting a little bit too worked up over "tech demos" aren't we?
There to give us an idea of the hardware is capable of and the "pre-rendered" footage shows what is possible on system maybe?



Once the actual games start rolling out, these things will be forgotten I'm sure

These are some powerful consoles and it will be interesting to see what the developers will be able achieve with them. These tech demos, real-time/pre-rendered stuff are just showing what to expect(even if the end result is not to your expectations). They are really nothing to fuss about.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Would you guys mind keeping it to english? I could start spouting off in spanish with smilies following my post, but I figured it would be rather impolite.

The guys only tried to calm me down...

 

[Kolgar]

Yes, seems KZ was prerendered. I think I read on IGN that the only realtime gameplay was the demos and UT2007 - which, hey, that was pretty damn nice, anyway.

Oh... but then there's the FF7 footage. That was touted as realtime too, eh? I doubt much else was outside of these few things.

 

[handbrake2]

I did some looking around and there appear to be some methods of generating ambient occlusion without necessarily ray tracing the scene.

Ambient Occlusion Fields
http://www.tml.hut.fi/~janne/aofields/

Depth Map Based Ambient Occlusion
http://www.andrew-whitehurst.net/amb_occlude.html

Handbrake2.

 

[Alejux]

It's funny how KZ is seen as unatainable now by some people. Before it was known to be pre-rendered, almost everyone thought GoW had better quality.

 

[London Geezer]

It's funny how KZ is seen as unatainable now by some people. Before it was known to be pre-rendered, almost everyone thought GoW had better quality.

No, PCENGINE did. Everyone else pretty much agreed the Killzone video was way above anything else seen at E3. Quite rightly so, being prerendered and all.

 

[DeanoC]

I did some looking around and there appear to be some methods of generating ambient occlusion without necessarily ray tracing the scene.

GPU Gems 2 has an article on real-time ambient occlusion, I think it downloadable from NVIDIA dev site...

Personally I rather just use a static ambient occlusion map and use the render time elsewhere... Oh wait thats exactly what we do ;-)

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Ambient Occlusion Fields
http://www.tml.hut.fi/~janne/aofields/

Intresting, checking it out...
Still, the quality isn't as good as in the KZ movie. But it could add great contact shadows on the ground around the characters' feet and vehicles' wheels.

Depth Map Based Ambient Occlusion
http://www.andrew-whitehurst.net/amb_occlude.html

This method still requires raytracing; it's merely a hack to overcome the very slow tracing in PRMan by doing the tracing in the shader code. It also requires the rendering of about 100 shadow maps. Certainly not viable for realtime, as it's very slow, and vfx studios are also phasing it out now that PRMan's raytracer has become faster in the past 2-3 years.
Off: The idea came from ILM by the way, and Weta has been using it for the LOTR movies to do occlusion, and the subsurface scattering on Gollum and other creatures.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Personally I rather just use a static ambient occlusion map and use the render time elsewhere... Oh wait thats exactly what we do ;-)

Yep, it can give drastic secondary detail to a character; but why not composite it into the color map to spare some memory?

Our problem was that baked maps won't give you the nice darkening around a character's body parts when they occlude each other, nor the contact shadows under their feet. Then again we can afford the render time