Official GT5 discussion thread

[Arwin]

No arguing with you about the sound ... they need to hire a better sound engineer. I am nog against the principle of using a synthesizer for modelling car sounds, but at least hire someone who is capable enough to do the real thing justice. Weirdly enough occasionally you do get a car that sounds right - Ferrari's at a high RPM can sound very convincing, or for instance the Lupo/Polo Cup Car etc. But very many cars, especially in the low RPM ranges, lack oomph. I'm pretty sure that if they'd invest in hiring an expert in the field, perhaps work together with some universities/audio institutes, this could be much better.

Many other car games just use samples, and that generally means that the game either has few cars, or cars don't have a unique sound.

I don't really mind the tire screech - at least it gives the exact right audio cues I need for when I start losing grip, which is what many other games utterly fail at.

My track days have all been at the Nurburgring, and if anything, they have prompted me to play GT more rather than less. I'm guessing your track day track isn't in the game.

 

[Nesh]

No arguing with you about the sound ... they need to hire a better sound engineer. I am nog against the principle of using a synthesizer for modelling car sounds, but at least hire someone who is capable enough to do the real thing justice. Weirdly enough occasionally you do get a car that sounds right - Ferrari's at a high RPM can sound very convincing, or for instance the Lupo/Polo Cup Car etc. But very many cars, especially in the low RPM ranges, lack oomph. I'm pretty sure that if they'd invest in hiring an expert in the field, perhaps work together with some universities/audio institutes, this could be much better.

Many other car games just use samples, and that generally means that the game either has few cars, or cars don't have a unique sound.

I don't really mind the tire screech - at least it gives the exact right audio cues I need for when I start losing grip, which is what many other games utterly fail at.

My track days have all been at the Nurburgring, and if anything, they have prompted me to play GT more rather than less. I'm guessing your track day track isn't in the game.

I dont know what is wrong with the sound of the cars, but its kind of funny that PD records the sounds of the car engines since.....GT1....but the sounds in the games are so different from the real thing.
Most of the cars seem to have convincing sounds when you accelerate directly from a full stop, but once they reach high RPM and the car moves the sound transforms from an awesome "vvvrooomm" to a high pitched "brzzzz". Why?

I sometimes get the impression that the sounds they implemented were taken from the engines when they are stripped out of the actual vehicle, thus no other vibrations or mechanical parts that should have been heard are actually there.

 

[Arwin]

I dont know what is wrong with the sound of the cars, but its kind of funny that PD records the sounds of the car engines since.....GT1....but the sounds in the games are so different from the real thing.
Most of the cars seem to have convincing sounds when you accelerate directly from a full stop, but once they reach high RPM and the car moves the sound transforms from an awesome "vvvrooomm" to a high pitched "brzzzz". Why?

I sometimes get the impression that the sounds they implemented were taken from the engines when they are stripped out of the actual vehicle, thus no other vibrations or mechanical parts that should have been heard are actually there.

Well, for many cars the sound of the wind does take over a lot more than you realise. Most car noise from our car park (which is one of the most modern in the world because so many people lease, and second hand cars older than 6-8 years are sold outside our borders) today comes from friction of the wheels and friction of the air, and the actual engine is drowned out almost completely in comparison.

But of course there are many non-modern cars in GT and these are still an issue.

I mean, this is recorded in-car, with a crappy camera, in a humble little cup car:

 

[Phil]

Ok - I just googled for videos from the PSone game NfS:HS and it definately sounded better in my memories....

Anyway - I guess some cars are better represented than others in the game, but just to illustrate my point:

SportAuto with a Scuderia on the Nordschleife

GT5 nurburgring onboard 430 Scuderia 8'05''371

I'm aware that some cars, when tuned to be quicker, sound a bit different, but judging by the non-spectacular lap time of 8'05"371 around the Nordschleife, I'm figuring it must be a standard 430 that's being driven in that video... and listen to how it sounds...

In the real video - just listen to the air being sucked into the engine as he lifts off the throttle. Or the sound it creates at full throttle, that power you can hear.

Watching those videos also shows how much more bumpy the real-world nordschleife is - in the SportAuto video, he's really driving on the limit and you can hear how he is at the limit of grip as the engine speeds up over the bumpy section (around 3:08 compared to the GT5 section 3:18). Yes, he's not as much on the limit in the game through that passage, but it's still night and day - and yes, I also know that GT5 is an as accurate representation of the Nordschleife as there is currently...

About the tire screeching noise... I agree, it's important and is a good indicator on how the car is losing grip in the game, but there's just too little variation there. It would be nice if there was a little more than the constant high-pitched screeching... this is just a little annoyance though, perhaps emphasized/exagerated by the mundane sounding car noises...

 

[Arwin]

Suspension and tire model did improve by the way with the 2.0 updates. Note also that the in-car camera greatly exaggerates all the shakes and bobs because it moves a little independently from the car, so it is shaking around a bit more than the car itself, to which the cockpit view in-game simulates the drivers view more (but even then is probably 'conservative' and doesn't shake as much as a real driver's head would)

 

[Phil]

I have to say, I haven't tried the 2.0 update, because I remember there being a bit of controversy that you could only use the update on the account you bought it. Since I use my US-PSN account (but am forced to buy off the local PSN account, because it won't accept my creditcard in the US store anymore), I never really tried the 2.0 update.

Anyway, the video you posted shows quite nicely what I think is off:

The tyre grip seems to be vastly superior, which IMO is not the problem, but the grip while the tyres-bounce is too good. In other words, when he drives over the bumpy section of the track, he never really loses grip - where as in real life in the other video I posted, you can actually hear the engine rev up as he momentarly loses grip while going at full throttle over those bumps. Even if the tyre contact remains, simply going over those hills or bumps should be enough to make the car light enough to get the wheels to spin up. This would be even the case with the worlds most 'sticky-tyres' on a bumpy track like the Nordschleife at those speeds.

I guess the video could also be down to a softer suspension setting, but a softer-suspension setting would have other drawbacks - more weight shiftiing etc.

Anyway, I guess it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, it's still a game, a simulator - and a damn good one at that. I'm really more concerned about the lackluster engine-car-noise in the game. If I had to close my eyes and guess which car is being driven simply by listening to these GT5 videos, I'd be hard pressed to distinguish any car from each other - the only indicators being how high the sound gets pitched (RPM limit) and how quickly the gear changes are (sequential gearbox or normal automatic/manual). Apart from that... well... I think it would be quite a challenge.

BTW: You are right by the way - the tracks I've been to aren't modelled into the game. I wish they were and if they were, I guess I would be playing it a whole lot more though. I've been to Spa though, which I know is in the 2.0 update (but as mentioned, I never bought it) and many other smaller tracks, Anneau du Rhin among others, which are definately not in the game. The Nürburgring is quite a drive away - I think about 530km and 320km it is to Hockenheim (I guess that not *that* far away, given some people drive a lot longer to get there).

And compared to others, at least the Swiss alps are only a 1 hours drive away.
EDIT: and just to add - the roads in the Swiss alps are a lot better than what the Eiger track is in GT5.

 

[poopypoo]

So many good posts in here since then; Antwan doesn't really deserve a response. Fanboys and their offroading bumper car "sim"...

Anyway, yeah, the engine sounds are terrible and sound to my ears very GT. It's always been sort of a whine with them. I figure the sounds in Forza are probably a bit "juiced", likely recorded from the engine compartment and the exhaust, and not from the cockpit. But they're glorious. The tires sounds in GT are not only weak but misleading -- as the game ramps up in speed I'm increasingly unsure whether I'm going to understeer all the way into a corner, or recover at the last moment. I have to mostly judge based on the tire heat diagram -- this is one example of a great UI improvement over F3's. I play using controller, though, so obviously the feedback in general is pretty poor in both games.

Edit: I should note, though, that actually I'm usually antagonistic to recommending that kind of workload to devs. My favorite things about both racing games aren't the graphics or the sound. I'm not sure what Yamauchi's real budget or plan was,but I like to think that GT5 tries to make the best of what they have done by not trying to one-up anyone with more premium cars and sounds. It would be nice, but if it makes the game better, then screw it. I feel the same about most games which suffer from photorealism and mocap and voice acting ruining the designers' flexibility. If you can make it procedurally and make it more engaging, or make something else mnore engaging by saving time and money, then go for it. Honestly, I'd be happier with GT1, with faster loading times (seriously, menus have always been absurdly slow in PD games, just not as absurd as in 5), better physics, proper tire modelling, damage, better upgrades, more cars, more wheels, more aero parts... But we do get some nice treats in GT5 like weather and better proportioned tracks. One hand giveth...

 

[Nesh]

So many good posts in here since then; Antwan doesn't really deserve a response. Fanboys and their offroading bumper car "sim"...

Anyway, yeah, the engine sounds are terrible and sound to my ears very GT. It's always been sort of a whine with them. I figure the sounds in Forza are probably a bit "juiced", likely recorded from the engine compartment and the exhaust, and not from the cockpit. But they're glorious. The tires sounds in GT are not only weak but misleading -- as the game ramps up in speed I'm increasingly unsure whether I'm going to understeer all the way into a corner, or recover at the last moment. I have to mostly judge based on the tire heat diagram -- this is one example of a great UI improvement over F3's. I play using controller, though, so obviously the feedback in general is pretty poor in both games.

Edit: I should note, though, that actually I'm usually antagonistic to recommending that kind of workload to devs. My favorite things about both racing games aren't the graphics or the sound. I'm not sure what Yamauchi's real budget or plan was,but I like to think that GT5 tries to make the best of what they have done by not trying to one-up anyone with more premium cars and sounds. It would be nice, but if it makes the game better, then screw it. I feel the same about most games which suffer from photorealism and mocap and voice acting ruining the designers' flexibility. If you can make it procedurally and make it more engaging, or make something else mnore engaging by saving time and money, then go for it. Honestly, I'd be happier with GT1, with faster loading times (seriously, menus have always been absurdly slow in PD games, just not as absurd as in 5), better physics, proper tire modelling, damage, better upgrades, more cars, more wheels, more aero parts... But we do get some nice treats in GT5 like weather and better proportioned tracks. One hand giveth...

You know my experience with GT5 has been mostly with a wheel with simulation on and everything set to.realistic. I have to say that with the wheel and force feedback I can feel the car, even the slightest bump from the road to that push to the limit where that extra small push will cause me to oversteer or loose control. This is why I am not very familiar with some if your complaints. The game was clearly designed with a wheel in mind. Truely amazing experience with that set up. The controller doesnt do the game's justice in terms of realism, feel and handling. It removes many variables that should be present while racing but are present with the wheel. PD is kind of bad at replicating the realism on a controller but the work was emphasized on the steering wheel where the game is ment to be played. Another thing is that the career mode does not have damage. I have tried it in the arcade mode with full realistic settings and full damage and I ve got to say it was an extremely unforgiving game. Much more than Forza 4 in professional mode. But GT5 is so lost into its content and settings, not to mention the ideal settings that have to be chosen manually that its real spleandor can be missed

 

[Arwin]

I have to say, I haven't tried the 2.0 update, because I remember there being a bit of controversy that you could only use the update on the account you bought it.

You remembered falsely though, I think. The controversy was about buying the DLC only, and if you bought the DLC, then other accounts on your PS3 did not have access to it for some reason. They fixed that in a later patch. Now the only requirement is that if you buy the DLC from, say, the US store, then only US accounts can access that DLC.

There are no regional locks to the game itself (as a rule of thumb, on the PS3, if there are regional locks, they are really only ever relevant to DLC if at all), and I think you should be perfectly safe to upgrade, and probably safe to buy Spa as well (and Motogi, the fun kart tracks, etc.)

But at the very, very least, do just update your game.

Decreased grip if you're in the air is actually present in the game though. It just doesn't happen quite as soon, and I don't know if you can setup your car that rigidly, so there is still a disconnect to some extent. But I remember even in GT4 that front wheel cars would start spinning through, and not fully but subtly, depending on how little downward pressure you had. I remember exactly in what car I tested that, a Golf V GTi, and I remember being startled by its realism because my car at the time, an Alfa 155 1.8, behaved exactly the same. Very cool.

 

[antwan]

I think the game+all the DLC boxed for 29 euro's is a pretty sweet deal.
Does anyone know if the savegame is compatible?

 

[Nesh]

You remembered falsely though, I think. The controversy was about buying the DLC only, and if you bought the DLC, then other accounts on your PS3 did not have access to it for some reason. They fixed that in a later patch. Now the only requirement is that if you buy the DLC from, say, the US store, then only US accounts can access that DLC.

There are no regional locks to the game itself (as a rule of thumb, on the PS3, if there are regional locks, they are really only ever relevant to DLC if at all), and I think you should be perfectly safe to upgrade, and probably safe to buy Spa as well (and Motogi, the fun kart tracks, etc.)

I have the PAL version so obviously I need to buy the dlc from a EU PSN. But my main account is a US. If I buy the dlc from the EU PSN does this mean I wont be able to access it when I play the game from my US profile?

 

[Arwin]

Yes, I think if your main account is a US one, you should buy any DLC from the US store

 

[djskribbles]

You know my experience with GT5 has been mostly with a wheel with simulation on and everything set to.realistic. I have to say that with the wheel and force feedback I can feel the car, even the slightest bump from the road to that push to the limit where that extra small push will cause me to oversteer or loose control. This is why I am not very familiar with some if your complaints. The game was clearly designed with a wheel in mind. Truely amazing experience with that set up. The controller doesnt do the game's justice in terms of realism, feel and handling. It removes many variables that should be present while racing but are present with the wheel. PD is kind of bad at replicating the realism on a controller but the work was emphasized on the steering wheel where the game is ment to be played. Another thing is that the career mode does not have damage. I have tried it in the arcade mode with full realistic settings and full damage and I ve got to say it was an extremely unforgiving game. Much more than Forza 4 in professional mode. But GT5 is so lost into its content and settings, not to mention the ideal settings that have to be chosen manually that its real spleandor can be missed

Agreed. I played GT5 from start to finish with a DFGT set to simulation. I tried playing with the remote for a bit because I didn't want to bring out the wheel and it's just not the same. I played every other GT without a wheel and now I'll never play without one. Fortunately there's really good third-party wheel support for PS3 and good budget wheels are very affordable and can be bought off the shelf.

The one complaint I'll agree with is the sounds. That's one of the weaker points of GT5 for me.

 

[poopypoo]

I've always wanted a racing wheel. Now I have the money, at least, for a moderately priced one, but I'm not sure if I have the space. :/

Everything I've been hearing about Forza 4 is making me sad. I'll still get it for the wifey (and probably enjoy it too). In GT5 I really must play with all assists off. I can't even get the back end to do anything if I forget to switch ABS off level 1. I can't imagine what lvl 10 is like >_< The cars are pretty pitchy with the traditional GT controller throttle though. I'll probably switch it to dual triggers tonight.

 

[djskribbles]

I played the GT concept demo for several hours with the controller before I got a wheel and I set gas to the left bumper, brake to the right bumper, and shift to L1/R1. I played previous GT games pretty much with the defaults because the PS2 controller didn't have the bumpers like the PS3 controller. After getting used to this setup, it felt much better. But since GT5P, I've had a wheel and never looked back.

 

[Phil]

You remembered falsely though, I think. The controversy was about buying the DLC only, and if you bought the DLC, then other accounts on your PS3 did not have access to it for some reason. They fixed that in a later patch. Now the only requirement is that if you buy the DLC from, say, the US store, then only US accounts can access that DLC.

Yeah, sorry, that's how I ment it and effectively kills it for me.

I live in the EU, but decided to use a US account because Sony decided that my localised EU account only offers content, when not multi-language, in German (mainly PSone games). Originally, this wasn't a problem, because the US account accepted creditcards independant of origin. Somewhere along the line in 2010, this changed and my credit-card stopped being accepted. It didn't really bother me at first, because a lot of the content (PS3 content that is) is multi-language and I just stopped buying PSone games or games that are only stored in one language.

Your message then confirms to me how I understood it back then - namely that this DLC is effectively worthless for me. I have put hundreds of hours into many games and built up an online identity under the account I use most (the US one) - just like I did with GT5. I have a large array of cars that I have put a lot of work into tuning them to my liking, progressed far into the game and unlocked all tracks, lots of money etc.

I would absolutely love the 2.0 update - but having to use it with my EU profile where there is absolutely ZERO game-time kind of defeats the purpose... I'm most definately not going to start playing from scratch again. Epic fail on Sonys/PolyphonyDigitals part.

BTW: I also refuse to think I'm the only one to have this problem. As it seems, Nesh is in the exact same predicament and I'm sure there must be quite some people (well peanuts compared to total console sales I guess - obviously) out there who start out in one country and move to another. Are they expected to just delete their online-identity and start new as well? This IMO is a major issue, especially in regards to next-generation, since PSN (just as Live on Xbox) is the thing that is there to keep us attached to their platform - the whole point of building up an online identitiy with a trophy history, friends list and online purchased content that binds us to our console of choice over many console generation transitions.

Hope I'm not too far off-topic here - although this subject would make an interesting topic on its own. Network identity and service is a new game for most of these console makers and it will be a very critical factor in how they position themselves with it when the next generation of consoles ship and how they handle this transition.

 

[Phil]

BTW just to add about GT5 - I agree absolutely that a wheel is must for this game. Which is also why I don't play it anymore - as mentioned - a set up in a lounge with 120" projected screen doesn't work together with my wheel. It wouldn't be a problem with the controller, but playing it with that just feels so wrong. I'd rather not play it then.

Usually, when I read game comparisons about how realistic a driving sim is, only to find out they're using the controller as a reference point... I stop reading. This game was ment to be played with a proper wheel. Which is why, poopypoo, I absolutely recomment if you do get a wheel, get one that is worth it. At the very least, a Logitech Driving Force GT with FFBP.

 

[Phil]

Oh - back to the topic of sound, I think I figured out the problem:

If you go back to my post with the two videos of the Scuderia on the Nordschleife, I just realized something:

In GT5, the engine sound always seems to be the same high-pitched sountrack, irregardless which gear you're in. In reality though, the sound is much more complex than that. It especially changes as you put the engine under more load in higher gears. The sound will become deeper, more powerful as you progress into higher gears. As you increase in speed, the sound the drive-train produces also becomes a lot more apparent and adds to the overal noise you hear. It is a bit like reving a car in neutral or actually accelerating in gears. A car will sound more throaty, powerful the higher the gear you use.

GT5 to me, sounds as if the cars are simply reving up in neutral - which I suspect, is how they recorded it for most cars. Guess the work-load is too high to actually get recordings on cars being driven under load - though I do think it should be possible to do some artificial tweaking to make the sound more deeper depending on which gear you're in...

 

[poopypoo]

I'll bear your recommendation in mind, Phil. About the regional online stores thing, I feel your pain! I'm an expat for a long time now in Asia and I hate having to choose. I have enough language skills )barely) to make it work in any region I'd use but having to choose blows and it's stupid. In the future, we will all be moving around more and more. I hope someday soon, ALL the manufacturers will realize the foolishness of region locks, especially for digital download content.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, sorry, that's how I ment it and effectively kills it for me.

I live in the EU, but decided to use a US account because Sony decided that my localised EU account only offers content, when not multi-language, in German (mainly PSone games). Originally, this wasn't a problem, because the US account accepted creditcards independant of origin. Somewhere along the line in 2010, this changed and my credit-card stopped being accepted. It didn't really bother me at first, because a lot of the content (PS3 content that is) is multi-language and I just stopped buying PSone games or games that are only stored in one language.

Your message then confirms to me how I understood it back then - namely that this DLC is effectively worthless for me. I have put hundreds of hours into many games and built up an online identity under the account I use most (the US one) - just like I did with GT5. I have a large array of cars that I have put a lot of work into tuning them to my liking, progressed far into the game and unlocked all tracks, lots of money etc.

I would absolutely love the 2.0 update - but having to use it with my EU profile where there is absolutely ZERO game-time kind of defeats the purpose... I'm most definately not going to start playing from scratch again. Epic fail on Sonys/PolyphonyDigitals part.

BTW: I also refuse to think I'm the only one to have this problem. As it seems, Nesh is in the exact same predicament and I'm sure there must be quite some people (well peanuts compared to total console sales I guess - obviously) out there who start out in one country and move to another. Are they expected to just delete their online-identity and start new as well? This IMO is a major issue, especially in regards to next-generation, since PSN (just as Live on Xbox) is the thing that is there to keep us attached to their platform - the whole point of building up an online identitiy with a trophy history, friends list and online purchased content that binds us to our console of choice over many console generation transitions.

Hope I'm not too far off-topic here - although this subject would make an interesting topic on its own. Network identity and service is a new game for most of these console makers and it will be a very critical factor in how they position themselves with it when the next generation of consoles ship and how they handle this transition.

but the 2.0 update is region free, and is not 'worthless'! It has physics and game improvements like better tuning options, better shadows and better framerates!

Only the DLC is a problem, but it is a small one - you can easily buy PSN cards online overseas and they will mail you the codes immediately typically, and then you can still buy from the US store!