Nice GOW/MGS4 Compare

Titanio said:
Limitations, hardware amongst them, have strongly influenced character design in videogames from day one.

I don't think it's coincidental in the case of GoW, I think there's some pretty judicious use of their "complexity budget" going on, but even if you wish to think it is coincidence, that still does not affect the comparison and the much greater technical complexity evident in Snake's model vs that of GoW's.

And a King Arthur model, btw, could be a heck of a lot more complex that GoW's or Snake's if you had the resources, technical and otherwise, to do it.

Looks like damage control. UE3 runs on Xbox regardless of what art direction the game using it is. Model complexity is not an issue for UE3 considering it uses normal mapping. In fact GoW was announced before it was even considered for Xbox 360 not to mention it was running on Nvidia hardware for PC.

As to your King Arthur excuse, how more complex can you make rigid armor??? I'm talking about polys here not shaders. Isn't a sphere a sphere when you cannot detect straight polygon edges? How rounder can you make it? :LOL:

onanie said:
That is a bold claim, jvd.

First of all I am not jvd, second take a look at the picture in the first post in this thread AGAIN. Tell me it's a bold claim with a straight face. Tell me the heli scene does not look comparable with a straight face. Of course you have to keep in mind the GoW video is not very clear. I would love for Cliffy B to release a cutscene trailer with the same rendering quality as the heli cutscene to shut everyone up who's saying it's not comparable.
 
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SGX-1 said:
Looks like damage control. UE3 runs on Xbox regardless of what art direction the game using it is. Model complexity is not an issue for UE3 considering it uses normal mapping.

No, that's the truth.

How do you know how GoW would handle it? How can you be sure they're not following the standard and common technique of taking complexity away from certain places to invest in more expressive features like a face? No engine is limitless, characters have budgets. And I've seen nothing in GoW yet to contradict the points I've made about tradeoffs and about hiding complexity. In fact there's all the evidence in the world to suggest that. You can keep thinking it's coincidental and that the GoW characters represent the most they could EVER want to do with them, but in the realworld, character designers deal with limits and budgets and to me that seems as much in effect with these GoW models as it ever has.

Oh, and Normal-mapping is not a substitute for geometry in the general case.

SGX-1 said:
As to your King Arthur excuse, how more complex can you make rigid armor??? I'm talking about polys here not shaders. Isn't a sphere a sphere when you cannot detect straight polygon edges? How rounder can you make it? :LOL:

Plate armour alone could be exceptionally complex geometrically if you wanted to push the boat out. But think of chain mail, or think of the cloth under-garments, think of how Arthur's hair might look. Look at the Project Assasin pic for some inspiration. To think an Arthur model needn't be any more complex than what you've seen in GoW highlights is...

Maybe X360 and UE3 are truly all you will ever need, and if so, I congratulate you, because you'll save a lot of money going forward.
 
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SGX-1 said:
Looks like damage control. UE3 runs on Xbox regardless of what art direction the game using it is. Model complexity is not an issue for UE3 considering it uses normal mapping. In fact GoW was announced before it was even considered for Xbox 360 not to mention it was running on Nvidia hardware for PC.

As to your King Arthur excuse, how more complex can you make rigid armor??? I'm talking about polys here not shaders. Isn't a sphere a sphere when you cannot detect straight polygon edges? How rounder can you make it? :LOL:



First of all I am not jvd, second take a look at the picture in the first post in this thread AGAIN. Tell me it's a bold claim with a straight face. Tell me the heli scene does not look comparable with a straight face. Of course you have to keep in mind the GoW video is not very clear. I would love for Cliffy B to release a cutscene trailer with the same rendering quality as the heli cutscene to shut everyone up who's saying it's not comparable.

Unfortunately, it is a little difficult to show you my straight face over the internet. Looks pretty barren where the chopper landed.
 
So what's the latest?

Not long ago they were saying Animations sucked in Gears of War (They don't suck, they just aren't as good) because of teh HaRdWaRe limitations of teh Xbox tee six ty.... hehe what a bunch of BS.

And now it's Epic that choose to go with Gears of War artsyle......because of teh hardware limitations...Omg...i'm cracking up here.

I'm a MGS fan myself, and i can't wait to play Mgs4 but i'm really having fun laughing at the atrocious statements of some people around here, Ps Drones....no matter how you twist MGs4 looks Comparable to GOW, but who am i kidding? PS drones could go to hell and back to show how Ps2 games looked better than Xbox games...next gen this was to be expected now that the PS3 games are comparable.

I've been showing MGs4 and Gow to friends of mine over messenger, people that don't give a rat's ass to games, and most of them actually say that GOW looks better, not that i think it does. I think GOW hass better textures and lightning, but overall i think they look as good as eachother, they just use different arstyles. Nothing to do with hardware.

People like to Forget the Xbox had 2x the Ram, Pixel Shading Support, and came 2 years after the Ps2. People have short memory, sorry PS drones but it's not gonna be like you want it to be.
 
cyberheater said:
Can someone explain to me how there seems to be a highlight around the edges of both characters in this image?

I'm not sure if I see a highlight, but I do see depth-of-field if that's make the characters "stand out" to you.

cyberheater said:
Is that done by the game engine or has it been post processed?

The depth-of-field is in-engine. They've also mention some additonal post-processing/filtering they are doing to give it some of its "look", but again, that's in-engine.

"Art director Yoji Shinkawa was on stage along side Kojima and both he and Kojima took the opportunity to explain a filtering effect that will be used in the game. Referring to the trailer, Kojima stated, "There's no sense of atmosphere, so on top of this we add a metal color and make it look like a movie on film. Using various effects, we dirty it up." Shinkawa then demonstrated the filtering effects in real time."

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/651/651960p1.html
 
one said:
Oh, and look at Snake's hair... if you see it frame by frame the hairs are streaming down when he sinks his head :oops:
http://files.lachy.org/ruliweb_mgs4_hd_sampl.mpg

Woah..That video is pretty frickin' amazing, and demonstrates the need for a hi-def direct feed. Konami better make it available themselves.

You can actually see the skin around his eyes crease up as he coughs inward. The debris in the explosion is so small and fine..Playing that frame-by-frame is revelatory.
 
No, that's the truth.

Really says who?

How do you know how GoW would handle it? How can you be sure they're not following the standard and common technique of taking complexity away from certain places to invest in more expressive features like a face? No engine is limitless, characters have budgets. And I've seen nothing in GoW yet to contradict the points I've made about tradeoffs and about hiding complexity. In fact there's all the evidence in the world to suggest that. You can keep thinking it's coincidental and that the GoW characters represent the most they could EVER want to do with them, but in the realworld, character designers deal with limits and budgets and to me that seems as much in effect with these GoW models as it ever has.

Because GoW is a UE3 game and it's coming to Xbox 360. Is that enough proof it could hand it? Or do you actually think GoW will never be released for Xbox 360?
Oh, and Normal-mapping is not a substitute for geometry in the general case.

Nobody said it was, but the fact remains GoW was shown long before Xbox 360 version was announced. Remember the first UE3 demonstration? Those character models look familiar? Oh that's right those models are the same ones for GoW. I guess Epic knew the limitations of Xbox 360 even before anything about it was known hence they chose the art direction of the models beforehand.

Plate armour alone could be exceptionally complex geometrically if you wanted to push the boat out. But think of chain mail, or think of the cloth under-garments, think of how Arthur's hair might look. Look at the Project Assasin pic for some inspiration. To think an Arthur model needn't be any more complex than what you've seen in GoW highlights a lack of imagination and/or attention to detail that explains a LOT. Maybe X360 and UE3 are truly all you will ever need, and if so, I congratulate you, because you'll save a lot of money going forward.

GoW armor doesn't have any chain mail and it's not because of hardware limitations.

Unfortunately, it is a little difficult to show you my straight face over the internet. Looks pretty barren where the chopper landed.

LOL so there were no buildings or anything around when the camera did a 360? Wasn't MGS4's empty buildings equally barren? The fact you resort to the surrounding environments indicates you agree that it's comparable to MGS4. Unless you think empty buildings in MGS4 is less barren than empty buildings in GoW.

You can actually see the skin around his eyes crease up as he coughs inward. The debris in the explosion is so small and fine..Playing that frame-by-frame is revelatory.

Unfortunatly his eyes look like dead fish eyes.

So what's the latest?

Nothing much...same damage control by you know who.
 
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I'd like to think that nobody argues that as a "whole", the MGS4 video was way more impressive than anything else.... i won't go into artistic arguments, since im a coder, but that said, technically speaking (after all, this is beyond3d, or what), i dont see the oh-my-god-ten-times-better difference.

Self-shadowing is nice, but it's tricky to get right in-game, and its not something that hadnt been done before. (Heck, we've been doing this in RTS's for 3-4 years)
To the guy who mentioned the view-dependent shadowmapping: it's _VERY_ unstable, and even if done right, there are cases when it simply fails. See Battlefield2 dynamic shadows for reference.

The GPU tech in these consoles (apart from nuances) are very similar, we're past the "gpu 1 can normalize per-pixel, and gpu 2 cant" times.

Bottom line (strictly IMHO): the MGS4 video is a very impressive teaser for an MGS fan like myself, but from a coders' POV, it's nothing special.
 
Nice little added touch that Kojima and Co. decided to add. Check out the licking of the lips before he sticks his head out to take a peak around the corner. And again nice sweat.

stounge9by.png


Bottom line (strictly IMHO): the MGS4 video is a very impressive teaser for an MGS fan like myself, but from a coders' POV, it's nothing special.

Now I know that's a lie. Ken Kutarugi said he was shocked in a nice way himself. All coders should think this is special being that it surpasses any thing even Carmack has done.
 
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SGX-1 said:
LOL so there were no buildings or anything around when the camera did a 360? Wasn't MGS4's empty buildings equally barren? The fact you resort to the surrounding environments indicates you agree that it's comparable to MGS4. Unless you think empty buildings in MGS4 is less barren than empty buildings in GoW.
Oh i see, we're all just imagining the soldiers and mechs that were marching around.

Oh how I missed jvd's posts :)
 
SGX-1 said:
Really says who?

Says the laws of physics - there is no such thing as unlimited resources.


SGX-1 said:
Because GoW is a UE3 game and it's coming to Xbox 360. Is that enough proof it could hand it? Or do you actually think GoW will never be released for Xbox 360?

I've evidently lost you. I'm asking you to think why GoW models aren't any more complex than they are. And highlighting the difference in complexity between the GoW model and Snake, since this thread was founded on that comparison. You think the design is coincidental and not at all affected by limitations. I disagree, completely, and I'm pointing out that it's irrelevant to the comparison anyway - whether you think it's down to technical issues or not, the GoW model is not as complex.'

SGX-1 said:
Nobody said it was, but the fact remains GoW was shown long before Xbox 360 version was announced. Remember the first UE3 demonstration? Those character models look familiar? Oh that's right those models are the same ones for GoW. I guess Epic knew the limitations of Xbox 360 even before anything about it was known hence they chose the art direction of the models beforehand.

"Judicious" character design has and is an ever present issue, it's not something that's just cropped up with X360. This isn't just about hardware, this is about engine and the game that's running on it too.

SGX-1 said:
GoW armor doesn't have any chain mail and it's not because of hardware limitations.

If you think the GoW models could look no better than they do, fair play to you.
 
Dear God, I knew there was a reason I had stopped bothering with B3D. Five to six years ago this usedto be a fantastic place, but it has gone consistently downhill from there and mostly because of threads like this and most of the people in them.

Do some of you even think about what you're saying before you post, or do you just come up with the first thing you can think of, regardless of validity, that supports your point and post it anyway?

Whoever said the static image of GoW looks more three dimensional than the static image (the fact they are both static images is key here though), I agree, purely from the shadowing in that singular image the character stands out more from the background. Does this necessarily mean anything in the context of the two games in motion though? That remains to be seen.

Whoever said that the movement of the two characters proved MGS4 was better because Snake moved more smoothly and his clothing flowed, while the GoW character moved more like a robot... Have you even looked at what they're wearing? The costume Snake is wearing is designed for ease and subtlety of movement, while the GoW character has heavy armour, he would move more like a robot but he needs the protection of the armour rather than the subtlety of Snake movement.

Whoever suggested Epic chose the GoW armour to cover up X360s limitations in ability to render fluid movement, do you also suggest that in real-life we send soldiers into war-zones naked so that their commanders can make a better assesment of their physical ability to move through areas? Soldiers wear armour, I would really think that the choice of armour has a lot more to do with the setting than trying to cover up the characters animation. Do you not think it would look rather strange for a futuristic soldier in a hostile environment, with access to equipment, to be wandering around in tight fitted, light-weight clothing?

Whoever said the GoW characters did not have facial animation as proven by the fact his face looks almost identical in most shots, have you even watched the video? There is facial movement in there and there is good reason for the fact his face looks similar in most situations... Most real-life people have a "favourite" face, a position their face sits in more than 80% of the time, only changing relative to certain situations. I could demonstrate this perfectly clearly if I had access to photos from the football matches I play from this PC, I have almost exactly the same face in all of them except from when I'm shouting generally, there are subtle changes but they're not huge, it's a concentration face and given the situation the character is in I think it would be fair to see the same in the GoW character.

I agree fully with Laa Yosh, I think people are just reading what they want to read both into the images and the videos and my first impression of the "sweat" on Snakes face from the static images was also that it was supposed to be a scar, it certainly looks more like a static texture than a clean area of over-laid dirt.

At the end of the day, the GoW image and videos look very good, the MGS4 image and video looks very good and ultimately both will probably be very good. However, until we have both games in our own front rooms I don't think we can even begin to make a valid comparison of the overall qualities of the two games and eventually it will likely prove that people will still have a favourite based more on personal preference than actual true, exact, measured quality and if you're really going as far as to analyse them that much when you actually have the games then you can't be enjoying the gameplay much.
 
Oh i see, we're all just imagining the soldiers and mechs that were marching around.

There were no mechs and soldiers marching around the environment that Snake was in. The camera cuts to a different scene. Snake was standing against a wall.

Says the laws of physics - there is no such thing as unlimited resources.

And the law of physics chooses what art direction too?

I've evidently lost you. I'm asking you to think why GoW models aren't any more complex than they are. And highlighting the difference in complexity between the GoW model and Snake, since this thread was founded on that comparison. You think the design is coincidental and not at all affected by limitations. I disagree, completely, and I'm pointing out that it's irrelevant to the comparison anyway - whether you think it's down to technical issues or not, the GoW model is not as complex.'

And I'm asking you how GoW's rigid armour choice has to do with hardware limitations? How can it be MORE complex than Snakes' considering the type of armor it is?

"Judicious" character design has and is an ever present issue, it's not something that's just cropped up with X360. This isn't just about hardware, this is about engine and the game that's running on it too.

I guess the art direction of Unreal for PS3 was decided based on the limitations of the PS3 then fair play to you.

If you think the GoW models could look no better than they do, fair play to you.

For the specific type of armor that it is, more polys isn't going to make it better. That's like saying a cube can be made more complex by throwing more polys at it.:LOL:
 
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Jon Brittan said:
Whoever suggested Epic chose the GoW armour to cover up X360s limitations in ability to render fluid movement, do you also suggest that in real-life we send soldiers into war-zones naked so that their commanders can make a better assesment of their physical ability to move through areas? Soldiers wear armour, I would really think that the choice of armour has a lot more to do with the setting than trying to cover up the characters animation. Do you not think it would look rather strange for a futuristic soldier in a hostile environment, with access to equipment, to be wandering around in tight fitted, light-weight clothing?

Well Snake's in a warzone :D

The point is, it has marked consequences for the technical complexity of the models whether you think the design was a way to avoid complexity or think it the GoW model looks the best that it ever could. And that's what this thread was started for - comparing these models.
 
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mckmas8808 said:
Now I know that's a lie. Ken Kutarugi said he was shocked in a nice way himself. All coders should think this is special being that it surpasses any thing even Carmack has done.

Wow, a "lie", thanks! :)
Forgive me if dont think what i "should", just because KK said something. :)


On-topic: i think it's art and direction what makes the MGS4 video special. As tech evolves, the overall quality is more and more dependent on the artists. And the Kojima Team is excellent at what they're doing. Not that tech doesnt matter (it always will), but as development costs go up, more and more studios will prefer a slightly less efficient and more flexible solution over a 100% efficient but case-by-case hacked one.
 
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