Range of graphics effects in console games *spawn

[Ruskie]

It's just good art. I've seen gpad grabs of various games and the poly counts are no where near as high as people think they are. Plus polycount is a very easy number to inflate without 'lying'. Additionally, it's very easy to fool people into thinking something is due to poly's when poly's have little to do with the image fidelity they are seeing. Finally, remember that rsx spec are theoritical possibles, and typically have little basis in reality.

Thats exactly what I wanted to say.Playing or looking at gameplay from those 2-3 games made me think environments are really higher then rest in poly count but when you take a look at screens taken by capture card you really see its all design "fault".Those games have their share of sprites,simple geometry and simple,3d box buildings but they seem to put lots of variety in environments which do fool people about it being more detailed.

Since "interference" mentioned KZ3 I found couple shots that in motion look "poly loaded" but when you look at captured image its poly count looks like anything else out there.Joker,you were programmer,RSX still has to render triangles that Cell culls right?Its not like Cell takes all the work from RSX?

Spoiler

 

[N_B]

Those first two shots are from vehicle sections which are typically less detailed than others as you're speeding by quickly or focusing on something big in the center ;-), and the last one is further out than you'd think and is much more detailed when you're at street level. I'd be interested in what the polycounts of the scrapyard stage are like, the detail there is something else..

 

[_phil_]

We have al ot of light prepass engines .A fully deffered engine should be able to output twice the polycount.
It sure looks like its pretty obvious in KZ3.

 

[kagemaru]

I don't think you ready need AAA exclusive dev to push the hardware, I think multi platform games can push the hardware as well. Sure you need to build your game from the lowest common denominator but since 360 has unify memory and shaders, those extra head room can going into the game performance right? Like many multi plat games, you see more solid performance or extra graphical features on the system.

I agree with this. Just look at the games last gen: Black, Splinter Cell CT, and Burnout were all multi-plat titles and they were some of the best looking PS2 games.

 

[Nesh]

I agree with this. Just look at the games last gen: Black, Splinter Cell CT, and Burnout were all multi-plat titles and they were some of the best looking PS2 games.

Black and Burnout were developed with PS2 in mind. Then it was pretty easy for the XBOX to swallow.

Splinter Cell? Well it wasnt as polished as other games. But they pushed the machine since it was developed on XBOX and tried to put as much out of it in the PS2

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Oh, the golden days of "PS2 can do normal mapping", how I miss them... not

 

[kagemaru]

Black and Burnout were developed with PS2 in mind. Then it was pretty easy for the XBOX to swallow.

Splinter Cell? Well it wasnt as polished as other games. But they pushed the machine since it was developed on XBOX and tried to put as much out of it in the PS2

Maybe Splinter Cell is my only real legit example, but still I thought SC:CT on the ps2 looked better than many exclusives for the system.

I guess the point I was trying to make is just because a game is multi-platform, that doesn't mean it can't push a system.

 

[Ruskie]

I have a feeling 3rd party are starting to get close to what 1st party developers are achieving.I'm thinking next titles like new GTA,AC,Battlefield 3 and CE3 games could get extremely close to tapping them out in a way that 1st party do now,if they haven't already.

 

[_phil_]

Maybe Splinter Cell is my only real legit example, but still I thought SC:CT on the ps2 looked better than many exclusives for the system.

I guess the point I was trying to make is just because a game is multi-platform, that doesn't mean it can't push a system.

There is probably not (that) much correlation in reality between the 2 bolded parts.

 

[Neb]

Maybe Splinter Cell is my only real legit example, but still I thought SC:CT on the ps2 looked better than many exclusives for the system.

I guess the point I was trying to make is just because a game is multi-platform, that doesn't mean it can't push a system.

Yeah Chaos Theory was real tech pusher and did more than most other games, I agree. From the shadow system to lighting, parallax mapping and nice exntesive use of shading and mapping.

 

[kagemaru]

There is probably not (that) much correlation in reality between the 2 bolded parts.

You mean how good a game looks compared to other software on the system has little to do with how hard said game is pushing the system right?

I agree, though to me it seems logical to think a game designed for the xbox would push the ps2 pretty hard.

 

[assurdum]

Yeah its a known fact that the 360's GPU can render more polys than the RSX

It is amazing how much effect can art have in the visuals.

It makes me wonder how they did it though. Some areas in those PS3 games appear to have incredible geometry and variety (even though they might not?).

Well, I'm not 'gotcha' in what said because it's just 'depend' how appears the other variables... if on 360 you want to push more poly of the ps3, means reduces other aspects when the ps3 can do better other thing with the more resolution of framebuffer or even of the texture, or whether you want HDR+msaa, resolution can be comprimised & not on the ps3... I mean, it isn't so simply to reduce in tech & artist from both, the platform are so different in a technical perspective; if you want to do something of better on the ps3, mean worsen on the 360 & viceversa. I can cite FFXIII, how excellent example but even Star wars.

 

[kagemaru]

I can cite FFXIII, how excellent example but even Star wars.

Not so sure if I agree with your entire comment here, especially when FFXIII looked like a last minute port which could have benefited from some hardware specific optimizations.

 

[Ruskie]

Well, I'm not 'gotcha' in what said because it's just 'depend' how appears the other variables... if on 360 you want to push more poly of the ps3, means reduces other aspects when the ps3 can do better other thing with the more resolution of framebuffer or even of the texture, or whether you want HDR+msaa, resolution can be comprimised & not on the ps3... I mean, it isn't so simply to reduce in tech & artist from both, the platform are so different in a technical perspective; if you want to do something of better on the ps3, mean worsen on the 360 & viceversa. I can cite FFXIII, how excellent example but even Star wars.

If you want to push 3 mil per frame on 360 and 1 mil per frame on PS3 its kinda obvious you will be left with more "juice" for other things on PS3 but when you are trying to push 3 mil on both its kinda obvious that one with worse vertex shading will struggle more.Thats why "heavy" games like GTA have more problems on PS3 I would guess,more triangle crouching for SPUs.

 

[Ruskie]

Not so sure if I agree with your entire comment here, especially when FFXIII looked like a last minute port which could have benefited from some hardware specific optimizations.

I don't want to get drag in some kinda of "console war" but from playing FF13 I did get the feeling its kinda shitty port.Primary because of the fact that whole world felt like straight 2 feet wide road and everything around you felt like a part of the picture,static static :smile:

 

[nightshade]

Yea well level design has got nothing to do with it, that's just how a some of the FF games are.
Atleast you have Gran Pulse here (I'm not just talking about the steppe ie. the field but the rest of the areas as well) to see that the engine can indeed handle it.

Well, I'm not 'gotcha' in what said because it's just 'depend' how appears the other variables... if on 360 you want to push more poly of the ps3, means reduces other aspects when the ps3 can do better other thing with the more resolution of framebuffer or even of the texture, or whether you want HDR+msaa, resolution can be comprimised & not on the ps3... I mean, it isn't so simply to reduce in tech & artist from both, the platform are so different in a technical perspective; if you want to do something of better on the ps3, mean worsen on the 360 & viceversa. I can cite FFXIII, how excellent example but even Star wars.

Which is what I've been thinking as well, the peak vertex processing of 360 is obviously higher than PS3 due to having access to unified shaders, but this can also mean that it'll have to cut back in pixel shading.
From what I understand you go three ways, either you balance them both equally or you stress on vertex processing which can lead to some sacrifices in pixel shading or the vice versa.

 

[2real4tv]

Well, I'm not 'gotcha' in what said because it's just 'depend' how appears the other variables... if on 360 you want to push more poly of the ps3, means reduces other aspects when the ps3 can do better other thing with the more resolution of framebuffer or even of the texture, or whether you want HDR+msaa, resolution can be comprimised & not on the ps3... I mean, it isn't so simply to reduce in tech & artist from both, the platform are so different in a technical perspective; if you want to do something of better on the ps3, mean worsen on the 360 & viceversa. I can cite FFXIII, how excellent example but even Star wars.

Or Ninja Gaiden...

 

[2real4tv]

Yea well level design has got nothing to do with it, that's just how a some of the FF games are.
Atleast you have Gran Pulse here (I'm not just talking about the steppe ie. the field but the rest of the areas as well) to see that the engine can indeed handle it.

Which is what I've been thinking as well, the peak vertex processing of 360 is obviously higher than PS3 due to having access to unified shaders, but this can also mean that it'll have to cut back in pixel shading.
From what I understand you go three ways, either you balance them both equally or you stress on vertex processing which can lead to some sacrifices in pixel shading or the vice versa.

Doesn't tiling add to the complexity also?

 

[Blazkowicz]

dunno about that, the load may also vary immensely during the rendering of one frame.
imagine the absurd case of a 100% geometry pass followed by a 100% pixel shading pass, there's no balancing, only a win-win situation . the PS3's older-style GPU is at trouble there.

 

[kagemaru]

I don't want to get drag in some kinda of "console war" but from playing FF13 I did get the feeling its kinda shitty port.Primary because of the fact that whole world felt like straight 2 feet wide road and everything around you felt like a part of the picture,static static :smile:

That has to do with game design, not the quality of a port.

Which is what I've been thinking as well, the peak vertex processing of 360 is obviously higher than PS3 due to having access to unified shaders, but this can also mean that it'll have to cut back in pixel shading.
From what I understand you go three ways, either you balance them both equally or you stress on vertex processing which can lead to some sacrifices in pixel shading or the vice versa.

I really don't think it's as extreme as you're making it out to be here.

Doesn't tiling add to the complexity also?

I thought tiling only added to geometry overhead.