Range of graphics effects in console games *spawn

[Nesh]

Maybe Splinter Cell is my only real legit example, but still I thought SC:CT on the ps2 looked better than many exclusives for the system.

I guess the point I was trying to make is just because a game is multi-platform, that doesn't mean it can't push a system.

Well it doesnt mean it happens always

The problem is, if two platforms are somewhat similarly powerful but not the same (i.e different strengths and weaknesses) you will see multiplatform titles that may push one platform more than the other or push both in areas that dont demonstrate their specific strengths. They will push them in the areas that both can do well

It becomes a bigger problem when one has a kind of "unfamiliar" architecture and demands some special care to get something out of it. In such cases they may design the game based on the platfom that fits best what they want to do and simply port it to the other platform (which may end up looking worse), design it based on the lowest common denominator to ensure identical quality, or design the game based on the common capabilities and optimize it as much as possible for both.

What you wont see happening is designing a project with completely different directions for each platform.

The only and closest example I can think of is Ninja Gaiden 2 vs Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 which were developed at different time frames by different teams. Sigma 2 was redeveloped for PS3's capabilities whereas the original was more fitting to the 360's capabilities. They pushed the platforms from different directions

In general multiplatform titles will more or less target the same visual characteristics and will look and perform similarly in identical sitiuations for both platforms.

Check Castlevania. I am pretty sure it pushes both. But I doubt it exploit's each of the two platforms unique capabilities. It relies on what both can do well.

While God of War 3 pushes the PS3 in different ways than what a multiplatform title would. Same may count for Uncharted 2 and Killzone 2. Those games were designed while keeping in mind what situations the PS3 performs best.

Gears of War 3 appears to be a similar example for the 360 although its running on UE3.

The unified memory and edram are supposed to allow for some unique stuff that the PS3 doesnt allow. So why not make a game that uses them to their full advantage?

 

[swym]

You're sure? I was under the impression that Dead Rising 1 & 2 had limited world/game space, though I do recall the underground parking to be packed. I know the video is pretty fugly here, but the entire colosseum is packed with instanced werewolves. It was rather shocking at the time.

I recall experiencing a similar shock watching the badlands in Kameo for the first time - with all the instanced trolls showing up on screen and then actively engaging the instanced knights in a hugh battlefield.

It's even more impressive considering that this game came out 3 years before NG2 did, and still had plenty more enemies on screen at once (numbers were quoted in the thousands IIRC). Check video @2:00

 

[assurdum]

Not so sure if I agree with your entire comment here, especially when FFXIII looked like a last minute port which could have benefited from some hardware specific optimizations.

It isn't really true. SE has explained more time FFXIII on 360 aren't a direct porting & they have employed the exact same time of development of the ps3. Just desume bad porting because run worsen on 360 it's a little biases. It happening thousand of times on the ps3 but no one presume that everytime, for the 'crappy' rsx. The reason is more simply, because SE engine was born with in mind the ps3 hadware. For my point of view, I just presume the Rage engine was born on 360 then rearranged on the ps3, so subhd is obligatory, but it's my presumption & I don't pretend to be take for sure.

 

[kagemaru]

Well it doesnt mean it happens always

I never said it always happens. :smile:

The problem is, if two platforms are somewhat similarly powerful but not the same (i.e different strengths and weaknesses) you will see multiplatform titles that may push one platform more than the other or push both in areas that dont demonstrate their specific strengths. They will push them in the areas that both can do well

I think how each platform deals with performance spikes from various techniques/effects is another way to look at it. Both system's are capable of roughly the same things, with various levels of efficiency, so how well each platform adapts to handle what the developers plan for the game is how it boils down.

It becomes a bigger problem when one has a kind of "unfamiliar" architecture and demands some special care to get something out of it. In such cases they may design the game based on the platfom that fits best what they want to do and simply port it to the other platform (which may end up looking worse), design it based on the lowest common denominator to ensure identical quality, or design the game based on the common capabilities and optimize it as much as possible for both.

We're 5 years into this generation, "unfamiliar" shouldn't be a term thrown around anymore.

The unified memory and edram are supposed to allow for some unique stuff that the PS3 doesnt allow. So why not make a game that uses them to their full advantage?

What makes you think games aren't developed to take advantage of the 360's strength?

It isn't really true. SE has explained more time FFXIII on 360 aren't a direct porting & they have employed the exact same time of development of the ps3. Just desume bad porting because run worsen on 360 it's a little biases. It happening thousand of times on the ps3 but no one presume that everytime, for the 'crappy' rsx. The reason is more simply, because SE engine was born with in mind the ps3 hadware. For my point of view, I just presume the Rage engine was born on 360 then rearranged on the ps3, so subhd is obligatory, but it's my presumption & I don't pretend to be take for sure.

Can we have a link for this? Otherwise it's nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim. I don't see what's so biased when discussing a port that was signed up late in development and had less time in the oven.

The state of PS3 ports in the past have nothing to do with this conversation. Generally I thought it wasn't hard to figure out if a PS3 port is lacking due to technical limitations (fillrate for ex.) or if the port just lacked polish in general and could have been better. Making comments about bias, when I'm sure I'm not the only one who shares this opinion of FFXIII, is really unnecessary.

Also you're wrong about the RAGE engine and RDR, both were first shown on the PS3 as a ps3 exclusive.

 

[assurdum]

I never said it always happens. :smile:

Can we have a link for this? Otherwise it's nothing more than an unsubstantiated claim. I don't see what's so biased when discussing a port that was signed up late in development and had less time in the oven.

The state of PS3 ports in the past have nothing to do with this conversation. Generally I thought it wasn't hard to figure out if a PS3 port is lacking due to technical limitations (fillrate for ex.) or if the port just lacked polish in general and could have been better. Making comments about bias, when I'm sure I'm not the only one who shares this opinion of FFXIII, is really unnecessary.

Also you're wrong about the RAGE engine and RDR, both were first shown on the PS3 as a ps3 exclusive.

Presented a game initially how exclusive, not mean the work are just started & on the ps3. I don't think it's wrong what I said. GTA IV was always presented first on 360 platform, then I presume 'rewrite' successively on the ps3 (RDR use the rage of GTA IV), I assume if an engine was developed first in a so different platform mean a sort of 'rearragement' on the ps3. FFXIII matter was claimed to PR of SE when coming out; I don't know if exist any link on internet (it's pretty old this statement), you are free to not believe me, but I'm pretty sure of that, I have a good memory. So to FFXIII was happening the same thing of GTA, but on 360 this time. The fillrate matter is substains for years, but, there is a big BUT, massimize fillrate mean on 360 fill the edram in the most of case & at the end, become just 'comprimeses of 360 limited ed ram' vs compromises of the ps3 limited bandwith, so it's not so clear if we talking of matter of superiority, because the comprimeses of both can meet in a close final 'goal'. Clearly, I know perfectly the advantages of unified shader & unified memory, I should be be pretty fool to substain which was worsen or equal of the ps3 gpu, but we have to see the things consider every variable in the final results.

 

[Ruskie]

FFXIII didn't use tiling right?I remember some developers here saying,a couple years ago,that not every engine will go well with tiling so I guess that could be the problem.

Honestly I don't know about RAGE engine,they haven't released any papers that I know of so its hard to say what could be the problem.

 

[assurdum]

FFXIII didn't use tiling right?I remember some developers here saying,a couple years ago,that not every engine will go well with tiling so I guess that could be the problem.

Honestly I don't know about RAGE engine,they haven't released any papers that I know of so its hard to say what could be the problem.

I don't know honestly, but could be.

 

[kagemaru]

Presented a game initially how exclusive, not mean the work are just started & on the ps3. I don't think it's wrong what I said. GTA IV was always presented first on 360 platform, then I presume 'rewrite' successively on the ps3 (RDR use the rage of GTA IV), I assume if an engine was developed first in a so different platform mean a sort of 'rearragement' on the ps3. FFXIII matter was claimed to PR of SE when coming out; I don't know if exist any link on internet (it's pretty old this statement), you are free to not believe me, but I'm pretty sure of that, I have a good memory. So to FFXIII was happening the same thing of GTA, but on 360 this time. The fillrate matter is substains for years, but, there is a big BUT, massimize fillrate mean on 360 fill the edram in the most of case & at the end, become just 'comprimeses of 360 limited ed ram' vs compromises of the ps3 limited bandwith, so it's not so clear if we talking of matter of superiority, because the comprimeses of both can meet in a close final 'goal'. Clearly, I know perfectly the advantages of unified shader & unified memory, I should be be pretty fool to substain which was worsen or equal of the ps3 gpu, but we have to see the things consider every variable in the final results.

Why are you even making this into a pissing contest between the two consoles?

You can make all the claims you want based on your good memory, but there are actual quotes on the net that specifically say "development for the Xbox 360 won't even start until the PlayStation 3 version is already burned unto Blu-ray discs" That said, I HIGHLY doubt the 360 version has been given the same amount of time and attention as the PS3 version.

Also what does GTA4 presenting on the 360 have anything to do with RAGE first being shown for a PS3 exclusive? AFAIK RAGE was always intended to be Rockstar's multi-platform engine, taking over for Renderware they used last gen. I really don't think the engine was originally developed on the 360 then ported to the ps3 in a "rearragement" as you make it seem.

Seriously, I'm not going to get into another fanboy fueled discussion. You have nothing to back up your claims, your logic is flawed, and I really don't think we're on the same page concerning this topic. I think maybe you need to get some facts straight before continuing forward.

FFXIII didn't use tiling right?I remember some developers here saying,a couple years ago,that not every engine will go well with tiling so I guess that could be the problem.

Judging by the resolution and them using AA, yeah I think it's safe to say FFXIII does not use any tiling.

 

[assurdum]

Why are you even making this into a pissing contest between the two consoles?

You can make all the claims you want based on your good memory, but there are actual quotes on the net that specifically say "development for the Xbox 360 won't even start until the PlayStation 3 version is already burned unto Blu-ray discs" That said, I HIGHLY doubt the 360 version has been given the same amount of time and attention as the PS3 version.

Also what does GTA4 presenting on the 360 have anything to do with RAGE first being shown for a PS3 exclusive? AFAIK RAGE was always intended to be Rockstar's multi-platform engine, taking over for Renderware they used last gen. I really don't think the engine was originally developed on the 360 then ported to the ps3 in a "rearragement" as you make it seem.

Seriously, I'm not going to get into another fanboy fueled discussion. You have nothing to back up your claims, your logic is flawed, and I really don't think we're on the same page concerning this topic. I think maybe you need to get some facts straight before continuing forward.

I don't think explained what implies different specs on console means have a 'contest' with the two console, I have simply said how works differently. However about FFXIII: http://n4g.com/news/451569/ps3-andq...ot-actual-development-time-was-only-two-years. From GTA IV doing a multiplatform engine, not means necessary provide the better on both hardware. I have explained what I though in my opinion, but unfortunately not exist concrete data about the Rage engine.

 

[kagemaru]

I don't think explained what implies different specs on console means have a 'contest' with the two console, I have simply said how works differently. However about FFXIII: http://n4g.com/news/451569/ps3-andq...ot-actual-development-time-was-only-two-years. From GTA IV doing a multiplatform engine, not means necessary provide the better on both hardware. I have explained what I though in my opinion, but unfortunately not exist concrete data about the Rage engine.

I merely said FFXIII isn't a good example for your point since the 360 port was lacking optimization.

You came out with some assumptions about the development and porting of FFXIII and about the RAGE engine's development. Then made some kind of comment about the comprises EDRAM introduces, which honestly made no sense.

Instead of all of that, all you needed to do was find a link that supported your assumption that FFXIII on the 360 received as much development and time as the PS3 (as you claimed). You can't, so my point still stands.

 

[Nesh]

I never said it always happens. :smile:

I know you didnt. My point is that sometimes such examples may be the exception.

I think how each platform deals with performance spikes from various techniques/effects is another way to look at it. Both system's are capable of roughly the same things, with various levels of efficiency, so how well each platform adapts to handle what the developers plan for the game is how it boils down.

Lets say that was a rephrase of what I said

We're 5 years into this generation, "unfamiliar" shouldn't be a term thrown around anymore.

Just trying to make a general point. Notice also "unfamiliar" in " ".

What makes you think games aren't developed to take advantage of the 360's strength?

I didnt imply they dont
I meant that the developer has the most freedom when he doesnt have to worry about platform parity and develops a game that is designed to get the most out of those 360 advantages. And thankfully yeah there are some games that do.

 

[assurdum]

I merely said FFXIII isn't a good example for your point since the 360 port was lacking optimization.

You came out with some assumptions about the development and porting of FFXIII and about the RAGE engine's development. Then made some kind of comment about the comprises EDRAM introduces, which honestly made no sense.

Instead of all of that, all you needed to do was find a link that supported your assumption that FFXIII on the 360 received as much development and time as the PS3 (as you claimed). You can't, so my point still stands.

FFXIII was develop for the first years on the ps2 platform, the work are translate on ps3 after, for a total of two year of work, the same of microsoft console; SE said that to revenge its 'care' of 360 version. I have posted, but you completely ignore my link About the rest, I have simply said my though, not interest to have the 'point'...

 

[kagemaru]

FFXIII was develop for the first years on the ps2 platform, the work are translate on ps3 after, for a total of two year of work, the same of microsoft console; SE said that to revenge its 'care' of 360 version. I have posted, but you completely ignore my link About the rest, I have simply said my though, not interest to have the 'point'...

I thought the link you provided said the ps3 had 2 years of development and the 360 had one. Which matches what I've been saying.

All I'm saying is there's a difference between a multi-platform title that pushes both systems beautifully (Burnout Paradise, Mirrors Edge, etc) and a port like FFXIII :smile:

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Mythology

So, really the 360 suffers from a lack of AAA exclusive devs pushing the hardware? And this is basically the major reason PS3 exclusives look better, rather than the inherent capabilities of either system. (as I have always suspected)

Microsoft has many times larger budget than Sony and companies like Turn10 have many times the employees of similar agencies owned by Sony.

If those are not "AAA exclusive devs" I don't know what is.

 

[Neb]

Microsoft has many times larger budget than Sony and companies like Turn10 have many times the employees of similar agencies owned by Sony.

If those are not "AAA exclusive devs" I don't know what is.

You ought to wonder though why third party games for 360 are the best looking for the system.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

You ought to wonder though why third party games for 360 are the best looking for the system.

Maybe they learned all they could from MS about the system, since it's less tricky. In other words, maybe the student has become the master.

Of course, this is if you even buy the whole 3rd party games are technically superior to the likes of Halo: Reach, in the first place.

 

[AlNom]

Going off-topic folks...