Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[Jay]

It wasn't cheaper. It was based on them designing for 8GB first, to enable background apps to run simultaneously with games, before they knew 8GB of GDDR5 was possible. Because they thought DDR3 was the only possible choice, the on-chip ESRAM was necessary to add additional bandwidth. The space on the chip that this took up, in addition to the space the Kinect processing logic took up (which was not huge, but not zero either) was space that could have been used for more CUs.

It wasn't MS being cheap, it was MS focusing on XBOne being the "all-in-one entertainment device" at the expense of it's gaming performance, a mistake that I trust they won't make again.

As I said it's not something I subscribe to personally.
but just because you and I may not think that, doesn't mean a lot of people don't. And the years of some people saying otherwise didn't change that view of theirs.

although I don't personality think they were sacrificing games for all in one machine either.
if the choice as they saw it was 4 or 8gb machine, even for games the 8 would've been the better option in my view, even with slightly less cu's.
Just so happens in the end, 8 ended up being viable with gddr5.
all in one doesn't automatically mean the choices would be bad for games.
but this is totally OT.

 

[mrcorbo]

Isn't Zen supposed to be something like 40% more efficient? So there's an energy efficiency argument to consider as well. Especially if you are also putting in a 6TF GPU and 12GB of memory...

Zen could probably match Jaguar performance at lower power consumption..

Someone with deeper knowledge can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think that that's the issue even if it's true, which I don't know that it is (40% more efficient than what core? At the same process node or different process nodes?). I think the area each core would take up on the die is the issue. 6TF in an APU that can run in a console power envelope promises to be a *very* big chip and you don't want it to be any bigger than it absolutely has to be.

 

[eastmen]

nE marketing team can do that, if they cuda.





the fuck is a zen lite
why back to cell
what

Zen lite is what the rumor mills have called the lower end Zen chips . Zen should scale from 5watt apu to 100 watt monsters.

 

[bunge]

I'm just going to throw this out there but the PS4 Pro is tethered to the PS4 in a way Scorpio isn't restrained. Scorpio is going to be able to leapfrog the PS4 Pro without having to push the envelop with all the most modern and expensive hardware bells and whistles.

 

[mrcorbo]

I'm just going to throw this out there but the PS4 Pro is tethered to the PS4 in a way Scorpio isn't restrained. Scorpio is going to be able to leapfrog the PS4 Pro without having to push the envelop with all the most modern and expensive hardware bells and whistles.

....huh?

 

[MrFox]

It will be binary compatible every new gen, backward and forward, if their "no more generations" and "no exclusives" statements are honest. So in theory they will have an equal amount of tethering to XB1, and will also have the same problem next gen (which will be a bigger problem if scorpio doesn't have a big cpu). MS will need to enforce a higher hardware abstraction, but their VM help simplify CPU ops and addresses translation if they ever want to use a different arch?

It's the whole Rolling versus Tick-Tock proposition. There isn't any tangible differences expected mid-gen yet, the interesting part will be in 3 or 4 years when they refresh the hardware again.

 

[bunge]

....huh?

My apologies. Maybe I'm wrong but my impression is that there won't be as many restrictions from MS as from Sony.

 

[mrcorbo]

My apologies. Maybe I'm wrong but my impression is that there won't be as many restrictions from MS as from Sony.

Can you elaborate a bit more? What kind of restrictions?

 

[Globalisateur]

Can you elaborate a bit more? What kind of restrictions?

Well, we know there are strict written restrictions to developers concerning Pro (and PS4) games. Documents that were around before Pro was released, notably:

"Neo is a high end version of the PS4 console" (Pro is a PS4, no more)
"Same application package" (so same disc, same digital download for both)
"All PS4 titles released october 2016 or later should support both the original PS4 and Neo system" (All games are cross-compatible, even multiplatform and indies games, not only exclusive games and such like cross-play Xbox games)

There are no such documents for Scorpio. All we have heard until now are conflicting PR promises. They still can do whatever they want concerning cross-compatibility or about the application package (different discs or digital download) for Scorpio etc.

 

[bunge]

Well, we know there are strict written restrictions to developers concerning Pro (and PS4) games. Documents that were around before Pro was released, notably:

"Neo is a high end version of the PS4 console" (Pro is a PS4, no more)
"Same application package" (so same disc, same digital download for both)
"All PS4 titles released october 2016 or later should support both the original PS4 and Neo system" (All games are cross-compatible, even multiplatform and indies games, not only exclusive games and such like cross-play Xbox games)

There are no such documents for Scorpio. All we have heard until now are conflicting PR promises. They still can do whatever they want concerning cross-compatibility or about the application package (different discs or digital download) for Scorpio etc.

This is what makes the Scorpio pretty interesting right now. That said, I'm sure there will come a day when the PS4 Pro is set free but in general it looks to be held back somewhat.

When Ready at Dawn showed Sony what they could do with the extra CPU power in the PSP, Sony unlocked it. So there's precedent for change. But I don't think Microsoft has much to worry about.

 

[mrcorbo]

Well, we know there are strict written restrictions to developers concerning Pro (and PS4) games. Documents that were around before Pro was released, notably:

"Neo is a high end version of the PS4 console" (Pro is a PS4, no more)
"Same application package" (so same disc, same digital download for both)
"All PS4 titles released october 2016 or later should support both the original PS4 and Neo system" (All games are cross-compatible, even multiplatform and indies games, not only exclusive games and such like cross-play Xbox games)

There are no such documents for Scorpio. All we have heard until now are conflicting PR promises. They still can do whatever they want concerning cross-compatibility or about the application package (different discs or digital download) for Scorpio etc.

This is what makes the Scorpio pretty interesting right now. That said, I'm sure there will come a day when the PS4 Pro is set free but in general it looks to be held back somewhat.

When Ready at Dawn showed Sony what they could do with the extra CPU power in the PSP, Sony unlocked it. So there's precedent for change. But I don't think Microsoft has much to worry about.

I think MS are under the same pressures that Sony is to not alienate those of their customers who bought XBOne's or PS4's at launch with the expectation that those would be fully supported (not treated as a second-class citizen) for five or six years after launch. I think, documents or no, Scorpio is going to be just as locked to XBOne (with the usual VR exception) as PS4Pro is to PS4 over this period.

 

[3dilettante]

Isn't Zen supposed to be something like 40% more efficient? So there's an energy efficiency argument to consider as well. Especially if you are also putting in a 6TF GPU and 12GB of memory...

Zen could probably match Jaguar performance at lower power consumption..

I believe the claim was 40% more IPC than Excavator.
Direct comparisons between Jaguar and any recent AMD core are sparse.
In terms of just matching some of the peak capabilities, Zen has twice the FP throughput per clock than Jaguar. The number of integer pipes is double Jaguar, but some of the more complex operations like multiplication and division were not doubled.
Jaguar can handle 1 load and 1 store per clock, and has the address generation capability to sustain that.
Zen's L1 can handle 2 loads and 1 store per clock, but only two AGUs. What optimizations it might have to compensate have not been discussed so far.

One Zen maybe could mostly match two Jaguar cores at the same clock in terms of peak FP and INT instruction issue. Overall IPC should be higher outside of certain possible uncommon cases that stress elements where Zen is not fully double Jaguar like address calculation and stores. Running somewhat faster would probably handle that on top of what should be some very significant architectural improvements.

As far as power consumption, AMD does claim that Zen should consume the same amount of power per clock cycle as Excavator. If it were possible to get a comparison between Jaguar and an existing AMD core (Bristol Ridge is 1.5x as efficient as Steamroller, Carrizo ~1.25x as efficient), some kind of vague estimate could be provided. However, that would be comparing to a 28nm Jaguar, which would probably not be the baseline Zen would need to exceed.

 

[Rangers]

Well, we know there are strict written restrictions to developers concerning Pro (and PS4) games. Documents that were around before Pro was released, notably:

"Neo is a high end version of the PS4 console" (Pro is a PS4, no more)
"Same application package" (so same disc, same digital download for both)
"All PS4 titles released october 2016 or later should support both the original PS4 and Neo system" (All games are cross-compatible, even multiplatform and indies games, not only exclusive games and such like cross-play Xbox games)

There are no such documents for Scorpio. All we have heard until now are conflicting PR promises. They still can do whatever they want concerning cross-compatibility or about the application package (different discs or digital download) for Scorpio etc.

There's no telling, but I certainly hope MS handles Scorpio better than Sony has "handled" PS4 Pro so far, in my view.

Not sure even exactly what I mean by that, but I'd like to see clearer communication, some standardization, larger improvements, more games designed to take advantage of Scorpio, perhaps some Scorpio only games, even, etc. I dont know, just more. The good thing is they have significantly more power to differentiate with, at least. even console to console, Pro is "only" ~2X flops of PS4, Scorpio is ~5X flops of original Xbox One.

 

[iroboto]

There's no telling, but I certainly hope MS handles Scorpio better than Sony has "handled" PS4 Pro so far, in my view.

Not sure even exactly what I mean by that, but I'd like to see clearer communication, some standardization, larger improvements, more games designed to take advantage of Scorpio, perhaps some Scorpio only games, even, etc. I dont know, just more. The good thing is they have significantly more power to differentiate with, at least. even console to console, Pro is "only" ~2X flops of PS4, Scorpio is ~5X flops of original Xbox One.

MS largest advantage is having significantly more time to develop the product; they need to learn from 4Pro and make sure that they don't ship another communication failure like XBO. If customers can not intuitively figure out if they want a product, it's been poorly marketed. Its great to see how they turned things around for XBO, but the evolution cannot stop and they cannot afford a reset either with Scorpio.

 

[MrFox]

If the 40% advantage of PS4 didn't provide a substantial difference, the 40% increase of scorpio won't either. Not sure what third parties will do, but expect a similar situation as we're seeing with OG PS4/XB1.

(ignoring secret sauces)

 

[iroboto]

If the 40% advantage of PS4 didn't provide a substantial difference, the 40% increase of scorpio won't either. Not sure what third parties will do, but expect a similar situation as we're seeing with OG PS4/XB1.

(ignoring secret sauces)

That is under the assumption power is only being put towards resolution. I have high expectations for FL12_2 for Scorpio, it would be embarrassing IMO to not have it this late into their own game.

 

[Rangers]

If the 40% advantage of PS4 didn't provide a substantial difference, the 40% increase of scorpio won't either. Not sure what third parties will do, but expect a similar situation as we're seeing with OG PS4/XB1.

(ignoring secret sauces)

It didn't? Arguable anyway, especially at the marketplace. A lot more 1080P on PS4.

But anyways I meant within the same ecosystem. PS to PS and Xbox to Xbox, difference is a lot more (Flops). PS4 : PS4 Pro=1:2.33 Xbox:Xbox Scorpio= 1:4.6. Pro is 2.33X Flops as PS4 and Scorpio is 4.6X flops as OG Xbox One.

So there is more differentiation there.

 

[Rangers]

MS largest advantage is having significantly more time to develop the product; they need to learn from 4Pro and make sure that they don't ship another communication failure like XBO. If customers can not intuitively figure out if they want a product, it's been poorly marketed. Its great to see how they turned things around for XBO, but the evolution cannot stop and they cannot afford a reset either with Scorpio.

I think one positive is I feel like the 4K and moreseo, HDR technology is really too infant. A additional year is sorely needed to sort it and also mainstream the pricing. We need not only affordable, brand name sets with both 4K and HDR, but also low input latency in game mode. I really feel like it's too early right now. This certainly applies to Xbox S too. And is one reason I dont plan to upgrade to S, even though over Black Friday it could have been done cheaply..

I mean if you have thousands OK. I prefer to spend 500 or less and still get a good quality (by my non videophile standards anyway). My current 1080P 55" Vizio only ran me I think 350, maybe it was 450, after a bunch of discounts and rebates. That's the range where TV upgrades become compelling to me. For 4K I'll need to stay at 55" or larger so the screen size doesn't feel like a downgrade (not sure I actually want to go any bigger though, as I hear larger screens decrease one's performance in twitch PVP games as it's too much real estate for the eyes to process quickly, and I'm all about Destiny crucible)

 

[mpg1]

It's hard to say how much of the PS4 power advantage was the result of the sales gap. Xbox One had a brutal launch in terms of PR...on top of the fact that it expensive peripheral bundled in making it cost $100 over PS4. Xbox also relies heavily on "anglosphere" countries for it's sales and has to over-perform in those countries just to keep up with Playstation. See last gen for that.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Not sure even exactly what I mean by that, but I'd like to see clearer communication, some standardization, larger improvements, more games designed to take advantage of Scorpio, perhaps some Scorpio only games, even, etc. I dont know, just more.

The only thing that Microsoft themselves can deliver from that list is clearer communication but given every statement given by Phil Spencer is fiercely debated because it is unclear and ambiguous, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Standardising the options for better visuals [over the base Xbox One] is something I asked for but having thought about it more what you're asking Microsoft (or Sony) to do is restrict dev's options on using the extra hardware how they like. If there was a good way to standardise graphics options we would have see on PC by now.

More games designed to take advantage of Scorpio is down to devs. PS4 Pro has received more support than I thought it would be even games like AC Syndicate being patched but Pro supporting is supposedly fairly easy.

Scorpio only games? You run the risk of alienating some of the existing user base. In a few years sure, but for launch? Day 1 Xbox One owners who can't afford a Scorpio being cut off from Scorpio-only games would not be good. You're as likely to drive customers to the competition as you are to get them to upgrade to your latest product.

I'm not sure Microsoft can learn much from Sony's experience with Pro because all Microsoft can see is what we can see: the small, unrepresentative vocal minority expressing their view on the internet. They won't have sales information or developer feedback - which is really what they need to repeat any mistakes Sony made with Pro which aren't visible.