Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[eastmen]

http://www.polygon.com/2016/9/7/12841596/microsoft-xbox-scorpio-playstation-4-ps4-pro-more-powerful

When pressed about the inclusion of a UHD Blu-ray drive in Scorpio, Penello said the console would have one, though a Microsoft spokesperson clarified that it is the company's "intention to deliver it."

He says they always add something extra in the hardware , that ps4 pro will hopefully help the xbox scorpio have more software , they announced a year early to get developers on board and that the power gap will be apparent

 

[Rikimaru]

Price gap will be apparent, I do not think power would.

 

[Wynix]

If they really wanted to make an impact they should pre-announce a $399 price for the Scorpio, though I expect that even by the time it launches the $399 price is going to be unlikely.

1000 posts, do I evolve into Millennia-Wynix now?

 

[eastmen]

If they really wanted to make an impact they should pre-announce a $399 price for the Scorpio, though I expect that even by the time it launches the $399 price is going to be unlikely.

1000 posts, do I evolve into Millennia-Wynix now?

i'm going to bet $400 for a 1tb scoprio and $500 for a 2TB

 

[Rikimaru]

i'm going to bet $400 for a 1tb scoprio and $500 for a 2TB

And the reason? Scorpio manufacturing cost undoubtedly will be higher.

 

[Globalisateur]

Proud to bring True 4K gaming

How are they going to push 'uncompressed' (so no dynamic res) native 4K with 6tflops when the much superior Nvidia tech barely do it with 11tflops with over the top CPUs?

PS4 Pro will probably render 2x 1080 native pixels for most multiplat games at the same framerate. How is Scorpio going to push true 4K with a 43% more powerful GPU?

Ironically if they don't (or can't) use a smart and effective up-scaling technique like PS4 Pro, a ~1800p or so upscaled game at 4K could look worse / blurrier than checkerboard rendering.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How are they going to push 'uncompressed' (so no dynamic res) native 4K with 6tflops when the much superior Nvidia tech barely do it with 11tflops with over the top CPUs?

By targeting XB1 level graphics instead of super ultra settings. Scorpio is literally XB1 x 4. Although I guess that's still unrealistic because XB1 isn't producing 1080p native, so 4x XB1 will be 4x 900p or whatever is being rendered by the cool kids these days (including dynamic res). So yeah, basically it ain't gonna happen. Scorpio will be using sub-4k and upscaling and dynamic res techniques just as XB1 is for 1080p output.

 

[Transponster]

Damn, Scorpio better have similar hardware rendering technique, if not, "2TF" advantage will go to Sony's court, that's the biggest suprise of this gen by far, lol.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The 'hardware rendering technique' can be done in software! It already is. Whatever hardware 4Pro has to support fancy rendering, it's likely only a small efficiency gain for the GPU, even if it doesn't feature in Scorpio which it probably will as AMD will want it in all their GPUs so devs can take advantage of it.

There is absolutely no way 4Pro is going to make up the performance deficit through a couple of hardware features.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Damn, Scorpio better have similar hardware rendering technique, if not, "2TF" advantage will go to Sony's court, that's the biggest suprise of this gen by far, lol.

MS always has the option to switch on the processing power of the Cloud if they feel underpowered.
I mean, the Scorpio must have this built in 'cos xbone already has it.

 

[Transponster]

The 'hardware rendering technique' can be done in software! It already is. Whatever hardware 4Pro has to support fancy rendering, it's likely only a small efficiency gain for the GPU.

How small? Because as far as i know, if it wasn't for the "HW upscaler", most of PS4 Pro power advantage over standard PS4 would have been "wasted" on resolution bump using software technique, but now, all of it can be spent elsewhere. That's what got me excited. Of course it would be ridiculous for Scorpio not to have "upscaler" like this if that's truly the case.

 

[AlNom]

The 'hardware rendering technique' can be done in software!

Maybe they emulated fixed function pipelines to make it really really really fast.

 

[function]

Damn, Scorpio better have similar hardware rendering technique, if not, "2TF" advantage will go to Sony's court, that's the biggest suprise of this gen by far, lol.

... and Sony, thought bested through flop and bandwidth and gigabyte and 4K Bluray and CPU generation ... did sit back in its chair at the gaming table, and turn over it's one remaining card. And on that card appeared the playful grin of the mischievous Joker.

And lo, hardware scaling, which had been the ugly beast, became to the enthralled the majestic and graceful sauce swan.

 

[iroboto]

I'm not sure how well Scorpio will do, but MS could not afford another release where it was weaker or even equal to its competitor, I think Xbox the console would be dead for it, their audience is certainly exhausted from the beat down this generation and won't be up for a round 2.

That being said, it's quite a different approach on how both Sony and MS prepared for 4K.

MS message is clear in targeting their hardware for 4K clientele. Both machines support 4K entirely, and from what I read it's 4K upscale is amazing on the S, and MS provides a cheaper solution and a more expensive solution whose price point is based around the amount of game performance you want.

In the end, planning your purchases with MS is easier because either way your new 4K tv will be supported And your library and peripherals move forward and likely to the generation following Scorpio.

Flipside Sony had their target around providing a better gaming experience to their existing customer base. If you want a full 4K experience you will need to wait for PS5, unless they also remove the UHD player there as well.

But PS4 base model doesn't support 4K, we are still waiting to find out what modes of
HDR it supports and how it supports it. The Pro has about everything except that UHD player.

As far as I'm concerned Sony took risk here, and it could pay off with its low price point. People will feel burned if PS5 is released before 2020, even then I don't feel people feeling comfortable with yet another console offering so soon.

MS offering is more complete, and if you are in the market for a TV, Xbox makes a much better value proposition.

You could buy a S today, sell it and upgrade to Scorpio. Holding onto the OG Xbox One you won't be so lucky since they don't support 4K. I'm contemplating offloading it but I still want Kinect.

TLDR; the offering ignoring price, let's think about buying used in 2020+when 50% of you upgrade to 4K tv.

MS:
* Fully supports a game library moving forward to some degree in perpetuity
* Fully support peripherals moving forward in some degree of perpetuity.
* Full 4K support starting at XBO S and forward in perpetuity.
* Implementation of Apps, developer friendly environment go forward
* Strong voice and TV capabilities and integration with your existing windows ecosystem with Cortana and Kinect
* Backwards compatibility with Last generation games

I think that is a great value proposition if nothing changes. To already be this clear about its future today is quite a relief to customers and I think if MS did a better job of marketing this they can begin building their good will right back up.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rikimaru]

It would be very funny if Scorpio won't do a native 4k in most titles and will use dynamic 4k or same tech as PS4P

 

[function]

I don't think it's sunk in yet just how much better Scorpio may be than PS4 Pro.

It's common to see comments such as "but the difference between Scoprio and Neo is only the same as between X1 and PS4!" based purely on flops. But there more to a system than that.

PS4 and X1 had the same amount of memory, the same optical and HDD storage size, same GPU generation, and same CPU architecture. PS4 had somewhat more GPU, while X1 actually had a faster CPU. The core game experience they can support is basically the same.

Scorpio already has somewhat more GPU than Pro, and significantly more bandwidth in an apparently like for like comparison, but if that's where the differences end then the PS4 > X1 comparison may be fair enough. But it's entirely possible that the Scorpio might also end up with:

- significantly more RAM, combined with ...
- double the storage size for media, allowing higher quality assets
- a more efficient, next generation GPU architecture
- a massively more capable CPU

Neo is a PS4 with a roided up GPU. Scoprio otoh may be a complete next generation of platform capability, from core game logic that runs on the CPU to the standard of assets the platform can use through to media support.

Scorpio might not just be a GPU bumped X1 or Neo.

 

[function]

It would be very funny if Scorpio won't do a native 4k in most titles and will use dynamic 4k or same tech as PS4P

... why?

 

[davygee]

I don't think it's sunk in yet just how much better Scorpio may be than PS4 Pro.

It's common to see comments such as "but the difference between Scoprio and Neo is only the same as between X1 and PS4!" based purely on flops. But there more to a system than that.

PS4 and X1 had the same amount of memory, the same optical and HDD storage size, same GPU generation, and same CPU architecture. PS4 had somewhat more GPU, while X1 actually had a faster CPU. The core game experience they can support is basically the same.

Scorpio already has somewhat more GPU than Pro, and significantly more bandwidth in an apparently like for like comparison, but if that's where the differences end then the PS4 > X1 comparison may be fair enough. But it's entirely possible that the Scorpio might also end up with:

- significantly more RAM, combined with ...
- double the storage size for media, allowing higher quality assets
- a more efficient, next generation GPU architecture
- a massively more capable CPU

Neo is a PS4 with a roided up GPU. Scoprio otoh may be a complete next generation of platform capability, from core game logic that runs on the CPU to the standard of assets the platform can use through to media support.

Scorpio might not just be a GPU bumped X1 or Neo.

I agree the Scorpio should on paper, but a significant jump from PS4 Pro, but don't forget that it's tied into the Xbox One ecosystem, and software needs to be fully compatible. Also, there is not "supposedly" any Scorpio Exclusive titles.

Also cost is a huge issue. It has taken Sony 3 years to be able to reduce the cost of the PS4 from $399 to $299 and it seems that the PS4 Pro is technically at the level (performance for dollar) that the original PS4 was in 2013. The only difference from PS4 to PS4 Pro is the faster CPU and new GPU. Do we realistically think in 12 months time, we will see a GPU that is 50% faster than the PS4 Pro along with a new, much better CPU and including more faster and better RAM amongst other things for anywhere near $399? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Function didn't mention price or value at all - only performance. His argument is whether we'll be able to discern the difference enough or not. In the event that we can, whether people want to pay for that difference is another matter. And then there's the whole ecosystem point - who's going to migrate from PS to XB for a half-gen upgrade?

So lots of business considerations, but they're all premature at this point and should probably ease off until Scorpio has had its announcement event and we can at least gauge the Internet Gamer's gestalt interest.

 

[AlNom]

... why?

Because then they'd have to call it a Libra, whose ecliptic longitude is 180 degrees.

The translation for Libra is also "The Scales". Upscale.

Mind you, the ruling planet of Libra is also Venus, which happens to be the hottest body in the solar system (aside from the Sun), whereas it is currently Pluto for Scorpio. One might say that's opposite. Or perhaps, a 180. Given the amount of power in the supposed "Scorpio", it ought to contain a lot more heat than any other console.