Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]
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Some additional numbers for Ps4 -> Ps4 Pro and X1 -> Scorpio
Ps4/Ps4 Pro for 1080p -> 2160c
1080p = 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 -> 2160c = 1920x2160 = 4,147,200
4,147,200/2,073,600 = 2
4.2 tflops / 1.84 tflops = 2.28
2.28/2 = 1.14
Ps4/Ps4 Pro for 1080p -> 1800c
1080p = 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 -> 1800c = 1600x1800 = 2,880,000
2,880,000/2,073,600 = 1.38
4.2 tflops / 1.84 tflops = 2.28
2.28/1.38 = 1.65
X1/Scorpio for 900p -> hypothetical "full" 2160p
900p = 1600x900 = 1,440,000 -> 2160p = 3840x2160 = 8,294,400
8,294,400/1,440,000 = 5.76
6 tflops / 1.31 tflops = 4.58
5.76/4.58 = 0.79
X1/Scorpio for 900p -> hypothetical 2160c
900p = 1600x900 = 1,440,000 -> 2160c = 1920x2160 = 4,147,200
4,147,200/1,440,000 = 2.88
6 tflops / 1.31 tflops = 4.58
4.58/2.88 = 1.59
X1/Scorpio for 1080p -> hypothetical "full" 2160p
1080p = 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 -> 2160p = 3840x2160 = 8,294,400
8,294,400/2,073,600 = 4
6 tflops / 1.31 tflops = 4.58
4.58/4 = 1.59 = 1.14
I can definitely see first party MS titles running at a native 2160p on the platform, as much as Ps4 Pro is running 2160c first party titles. Still can't see how it makes sense in third party titles that have to support X1/Ps4/Ps4 Pro and Scorpio though.
Ps4/Ps4 Pro for 1080p -> 2160c
1080p = 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 -> 2160c = 1920x2160 = 4,147,200
4,147,200/2,073,600 = 2
4.2 tflops / 1.84 tflops = 2.28
2.28/2 = 1.14
Ps4/Ps4 Pro for 1080p -> 1800c
1080p = 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 -> 1800c = 1600x1800 = 2,880,000
2,880,000/2,073,600 = 1.38
4.2 tflops / 1.84 tflops = 2.28
2.28/1.38 = 1.65
X1/Scorpio for 900p -> hypothetical "full" 2160p
900p = 1600x900 = 1,440,000 -> 2160p = 3840x2160 = 8,294,400
8,294,400/1,440,000 = 5.76
6 tflops / 1.31 tflops = 4.58
5.76/4.58 = 0.79
X1/Scorpio for 900p -> hypothetical 2160c
900p = 1600x900 = 1,440,000 -> 2160c = 1920x2160 = 4,147,200
4,147,200/1,440,000 = 2.88
6 tflops / 1.31 tflops = 4.58
4.58/2.88 = 1.59
X1/Scorpio for 1080p -> hypothetical "full" 2160p
1080p = 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 -> 2160p = 3840x2160 = 8,294,400
8,294,400/2,073,600 = 4
6 tflops / 1.31 tflops = 4.58
4.58/4 = 1.59 = 1.14
I can definitely see first party MS titles running at a native 2160p on the platform, as much as Ps4 Pro is running 2160c first party titles. Still can't see how it makes sense in third party titles that have to support X1/Ps4/Ps4 Pro and Scorpio though.
Resolution scaling is never linear in terms of resources required, we see that with native resolution so in some ways we should see something similar with CB.This is what I'm thinking for third parties, X1/Ps4 situation reversed, 1800c vs 2160c in most cases. At least that makes sense for scaling a game from X1 all the way up to Scorpio across 4 different platforms. Of course, first parties (and some third parties like ID [my guess]) will push both the Pro and Scorpio more.
Edit: Some quick math
1800c = 1600x1800 = 2,880,000 | 2160c = 1920x2160 = 4,147,200
4,147,200/2,880,000 = 1.44
6 tflops / 4.2 tflops = 1.42
Xbox/Ps4
900p = 1600x900 = 1,440,000 | 1080p = 1920x1080 = 2,073,600
2,073,600/1,440,000 = 1.44 (ring a bell?)
1.84 tflops / 1.31 tflops = 1.40
My guess is that if MS want to do "True 4K" with Scorpio they'd have to sacrifice more than what the Ps4 Pro will for 1800p checkerboard or even 2160p checkerboard, which doesn't make sense whatsoever (both for consumers and marketing). Also, all this nonsense is really good for a single reason, just messing up fanboy warrior logic, they are basically reversing the marketing terms so each "side" will have to adjust and use the "opposition" arguments against them, fun times!
Bottlenecks in games vary, and 4Pro and Scorpio have been upgraded differently, not sure if 4Pro represents a good guide stick for Scorpio performance.
X1 and Ps4 are very different too (cus, rops, mem config, ace, except cpu which is largely similar) but these numbers seem to match the output of the past 3 years. We'll have to see what is different about the Scorpio on paper (in the final spec), 6 tflop and 320 gb/s b/w won't magically transform 900p titles to run at 2160p. Going by that very same logic running games at 2160p (which is something very few titles do on Ps4 Pro) will incur extra bottlenecks on the Scorpio (shading twice as many pixels for starters).
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One reason might be that Intel invests in developing their own compilers. ICC is often among the fastest.
True.
Plus Unlike PS4Bone, Scorpio and Pro may have different architectural features. Scorpio may bring tiled rasterization and and the unified L2 cashew nuts, and even without those things after the CPU's cut of BW is taken into account Scorpio should have a little more BW per FLOP than Pro.
Although half res with chequerboard would be a nice, clean approach with no upscale needed (assuming no dynamic res) ... and it'd be good for 60 fps games.
generwlly speaking I think your on target, but I want to avoid the trap of grouping all of the problems together and saying that a straight math will show the way. For example fitting things into 32MB of esram; your simple math completely side steps this very issue that is specific only to XBO, I'm not saying all resolution issues are attributable here, but let's not cross it off like it's a non existent problem.
There are 30fps 1080p games on XBO that looks graphically superior to their 900 and 720p counterparts.
I agree with that, that's why i called it out as simple math and not anything concrete. Surely we'll see variation from game to game and how they use the h/w. I'll just say that i prefer 2160c with bells and whistles rather than X1/Ps4 at 2160p. Even Pro gets some upgrades from 1080p games (Horizon is one good example). I'd prefer to run all my PC games at 2160c had I the option. And even if a game that's on X1 runs at native 2160p on Scorpio just fine, I think you'd get a better result using checkerboard to render at 5k or something in between 4k and 5k and then downsample the result to 4k. But I guess we'll have to wait and see, it's not too long now before we know more about the system and how it runs the games
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Yea, the straight math runs into incredible issues at the low end.
- Titanfall, Dead Rising 3, COD Ghosts are all 720p. To get to 4K you'd require 1.31 * 9 =~ 12 TF of power to run at 4K. We know that's wrong.
- Titanfall 2 runs 4K@60@Ultra settings with a Geforce 1080, 9 TF. Most xbox/ps4 games don't run ultra settings either, and there are always specific graphical settings that completely tank performance as they don't scale well with 4K.
- Ryse which is 900p on Xbox would require 7.54TF to make it to 4K. That's wrong, because it runs at 4K @40FPS with a geforce 970.
Once again, the power is available to perform 2160p, its up to the developers on whether they want to implement 2160c.
- 2160c requires a lot of work, you're got to basically remaking a lot of that render pipeline. It's best suited for games still in development, and games as a service (destiny, division etc).
- 2160p is _easy_ by comparison, the work required by the developer to make it happen is minimal, but the pressure on the hardware is enormous. 2160p is a good patch for games that are not worth investing the time and money to 2160c + fidelity, but they want to give it 4K to increase sales.
Shamefully (not shamelessly) stolen from GAF, Microsoft has a "pre order" page for Scorpio up. Except you can only chose to receive an email "when available. Still it's something, and evidence E3 and the big reveal approaches...
https://www.microsoftstore.com/stor...459594)(je6NUbpObpQ-iDyl42UAqSP5HR7j5PfUPQ)()
Some text from the page
What does that tells us? 6TF=no upgrade? Pushing the "true 4k" angle? Sticking to fully compatible with Xbox One?
BTW, has a internal code name (Scorpio) ever gotten this much public marketing?
Still hoping for that late April or even May stand alone Scorpio reveal event. April seems to good to be true but I hope...it isn't too far away.
https://www.microsoftstore.com/stor...459594)(je6NUbpObpQ-iDyl42UAqSP5HR7j5PfUPQ)()
Some text from the page
What does that tells us? 6TF=no upgrade? Pushing the "true 4k" angle? Sticking to fully compatible with Xbox One?
BTW, has a internal code name (Scorpio) ever gotten this much public marketing?
Still hoping for that late April or even May stand alone Scorpio reveal event. April seems to good to be true but I hope...it isn't too far away.
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ProspectorPete
Regular
I was just thinking, Destiny was 100%, 1:1: 1080p for 1080p, 30fps for 30fps, 100% the same between PS4 and Xbox One.. The difference in power between those consoles and Scorpio-Pro are about the same.
Ubisoft was also really generous to Microsoft for Unity;
http://kotaku.com/ac-unity-will-have-same-specs-on-xbox-one-and-ps4-to-av-1643054770
Activision and Ubisoft; both companies which heavily supported Xbox 360 in the previous generation. Is it possible that they artificially limited PS4 games out of respect of the former 'king', that they were expecting Xbox One to be the dominant platform sales wise so to not anger Microsoft?
In that case, Xbox Scorpio will be locked at PS4 pro settings and frame rates, just like they did for Unity and Destiny, now that they know PS4(Pro) will always be on top.
Sony only needs to work out some marketing deals with EA and there you have it : Scorpio will be running the Destiny and Unity equivalents of multi-platform titles.
Ubisoft was also really generous to Microsoft for Unity;
http://kotaku.com/ac-unity-will-have-same-specs-on-xbox-one-and-ps4-to-av-1643054770
Activision and Ubisoft; both companies which heavily supported Xbox 360 in the previous generation. Is it possible that they artificially limited PS4 games out of respect of the former 'king', that they were expecting Xbox One to be the dominant platform sales wise so to not anger Microsoft?
In that case, Xbox Scorpio will be locked at PS4 pro settings and frame rates, just like they did for Unity and Destiny, now that they know PS4(Pro) will always be on top.
Sony only needs to work out some marketing deals with EA and there you have it : Scorpio will be running the Destiny and Unity equivalents of multi-platform titles.
this doesn't hold up in my books.
for example destiny didn't start of at the same resolution and they were going to ship it that way.
it was ms that sent developers to help them get to 1080p.
if anything this shows that it's not always a simple TF difference that stopped it.
being the lead platform makes a difference though, but other things also need to take into account, dev tools, ease of dev and accessing power, actual specs, team size and talent, engine type, etc
the reason being lead platform makes difference is that your developing mainly to that platforms strengths, and working around it's weaknesses.
doesn't mean your artificially limiting another platform, by choice for parity.
hindsight is pretty clear as day now, aside from a handful of examples PS4 has always been running higher settings. Usually it's an exception and not the norm, and exceptions always have stories attached to them. For destiny, it's clearly designed for last generation, and that may have artificially limited its ability to scale graphically. Both PS4 and XBO are effectively the same system with weaker hardware across the board for XBO. That makes for a good case of running at lower resolution on XBO for most cases, but that doesn't make the case for them not having the same graphics in terms of features.
There's a lot to be said about 'power' and 'features'. Features are the most important aspect I think, features let you change the way you use that power. Obviously i'm biased in that regard, I define generations of graphics by their feature set. If you have enough new features, you're going to be rendering differently then if you didn't have those features.
Doesn't this apply to Scorpio/Ps4 Pro? The games will be designed for Xbox One and Ps4 first then ported to the other two platforms and PC. Unless Scorpio is a massive success, I don't see third party devs targeting the platform exclusively unless there's an incentive(MS funding perhaps? but that is unlikely).
The VR mention presumably relates to MS's open VR protocol, with a range of headsets at a range of qualities. Having not announced any VR plans for Scorpio, one wonders where the software is going to come from, suggesting to me it'll run Windows VR software, or there'll be some porting option. Or MS will announce some VR strategy in the reveal.
Launch titles all ran with a sub par graphics driver, pre mono releases should be ignored or at least not used as major influencers.
Given pro for the most part is going to need 2160c then I like the idea of Scorpio getting some supersampling with checkerboard and extra shader cycles.
Did they not only send their crack team of programmers but also drop the kinect reservation to release 10% GPU time and other driver fixes all at once. Destiny at least was very plausibly dragged up to 1080 by sheer determination of the platform holder as opposed to publisher loyalty. It was PR brilliance really, piggy backing on the title of the year or even generation to signal the Xbox has got what it takes. Microsoft probably moved mountains internally to ensure their xdk delivered what Bungie needed.
To an extent yea probably. Definitely in the start, less so near the end. By artificially I mean that it may have been Bungies call to not have such massive separation in terms of graphics between the last and current generation. There's also some technical factors as well I'm sure, but it is developers choice on the matter.
As for whether 3P will take advantage, I think they will. Ubisoft does with "the division" and they have exactly the features I'm looking for in Scorpio enhanced games, but they are PC exclusive, more like Maxwell 2+ exclusive.
Every feature within Scorpio is still controlled by flags, meaning you can write functions such that if you have CR do it this way if not do it that way. I think that's significantly more workable than trying to get a whole game with graphics to fit in 512MB of RAM lol. But still surprised at their success with last gen. but I agree that if you're going to try to write a whole new pipeline with these features in mind as being there, yea it's not going to happen until Scorpio exclusives are allowed or the generation has moved on.
Eveey generation has shown that there is a slow ramp to include and change features. I'm sure developers will (eventually) go through this process with Scorpio, and it will lead to their benefit ultimately since we know those features will be in XB2 and PS5 and whatever comes after.
there's a big difference in ps360 gen architectures compared to current gen and the mid gens.
feature levels, cpu types, etc.
so you can't compare those cross gen ports, to current gen to mid gen game updates.
the amount of work required is order of magnitudes different.
as rod Ferguson said, pc's been doing it for years and their just learning from that.
these mid gen updates are more like pc updates, than the old console new generations
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