Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[orangpelupa]

But sony requires new games to have pro mode. At least it was like that before this firmware update.

Maybe they change it. Sony often backtrack and changes their policies

 

[Deleted member 11852]

But sony requires new games to have pro mode. At least it was like that before this firmware update.

Right, but they don't mandate the amount of effort - and you can't, really. Personally I think it's unfair of Sony to mandate support for a device which is such a small part of user base but if Boost mode promotes more scaleable code by default then this will be a good thing for the future should Sony be aiming for PS5 to be compatible with PS4/Pro because many PS4 games will scale to Pro and should also scale to PS5.

This would also be bad for Microsoft.

 

[mpg1]

But sony requires new games to have pro mode. At least it was like that before this firmware update.

Right, but the chances of pre-pro PS4 games getting a patch now is almost surely gone.

 

[chris1515]

They will continue to keep asking for Pro mode. And on Sony side they think base PS4 is ok, big install base.

But they think for PS4 Pro some AAA studios will do like now and will not do more effort to extract more performance from PS4 Pro. It is ok. Time is money and porting to PS4 Pro is not a huge cost at leat. PS4 Pro is a little more difficult for indie with tight budget...

 

[one]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-02-02-playstation-uks-bid-to-halt-the-ps4-sales-slowdown

One of the stats that Light was keen to roll out was that 40% of PS4 Pro purchasers in the UK were new customers. Clearly the firm had expected the vast majority of buyers to be existing PS4 owners looking to upgrade, but that hasn't been entirely the case.

Light describes the launch of Pro as "measured", but armed with this statistic, he plans to significantly ramp up the promotion around the machine as more stock comes into the market (plus Horizon: Zero Dawn - a game that makes good use of Pro's extra abilities - will help when that arrives on March 1st).

 

[BRiT]

This would also be bad for Microsoft.

Having scalable code will be GREAT for Microsoft because it will scale awesomely on Scorpio. That is why most large developer studios for MS already have scalable engines like Forza Apex or Gears of War. If this is good for Sony it is better for Microsoft because there is a larger distance between Xbox One and Scorpio.

Most importantly its best for consumers too.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Chances of them getting a meaningful Pro patch were slim anyway. Devs don't want to spend the effort for negligible returns. More likely future games will include Pro optimisations

Having scalable code will be GREAT for Microsoft because it will scale awesomely on Scorpio. That is why most large developer studios for MS already have scalable engines like Forza Apex or Gears of War. If this is good for Sony it is better for Microsoft because there is a larger distance between Xbox One and Scorpio.

Most importantly its best for consumers too.

It'll be bad for MS because it'll likely mean PS5 plays all the PS4 games, which hitherto was looking like a key USP of the XBox platform and something MS could have used to woo PS gamers - "leave no game behind!"

 

[BRiT]

I do hope the Boost firmware for the 4Pro really prods the game developers to using more scalable engines in the immediate future. If they do, that will make for better experiences on both Sony and Microsoft midgen upgrades, the 4Pro and Scorpio. It should also carry over to the PC. This should be a definite win for the consumers.

 

[BRiT]

It'll be bad for MS because it'll likely mean PS5 plays all the PS4 games, which hitherto was looking like a key USP of the XBox platform and something MS could have used to woo PS gamers - "leave no game behind!"

Oh, from that perspective yes, if the PS5 is backwards compat with 4Pro then it makes MS's "no gamer left behind" a bit less valuable. But I'm fine witht that as a consumer, even if it means MS has to work harder. There should be no such thing as having to dump your previous game library just to get newer experiences.

Anyways, this should likely be moved to the midgen thread as we're getting a bit off topic by brining in MS.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Having scalable code will be GREAT for Microsoft because it will scale awesomely on Scorpio.

Given the initial implementation of Pro, where games had to be specifically written to take advantage of Pro hardware, I felt it likely that Sony's APIs were just too close to the metal and hardware timing dependant, for games just to work a bit better as we saw with Xbox One S. But it seems like that is not the case which means if Sony chose their nextgen hardware wisely, they can bring the entire PS4/Pro game library and have it scale.

I genuinely did not expect this and thought Microsoft's obvious groundwork laying for forwards/backwards compatibility on Xbox was going to be their big opportunity to keep existing Xbox owners as well as persuade PS4/Pro owners to jump ship if PS5 was a clean break.

Frankly, I'm pleased as punch about this because losing your game library with new hardware was wearing thin.

 

[iroboto]

Right, but they don't mandate the amount of effort - and you can't, really. Personally I think it's unfair of Sony to mandate support for a device which is such a small part of user base but if Boost mode promotes more scaleable code by default then this will be a good thing for the future should Sony be aiming for PS5 to be compatible with PS4/Pro because many PS4 games will scale to Pro and should also scale to PS5.

This would also be bad for Microsoft.

Should be okay for both companies. I assume Thr idea is that 4Pro and Scorpio just end up being closer to the max settings on PC. Since 3rd party is already developing that and we expect the same from first party they should all be okay.

I don't think their should be any intentional lack of scaling for these consoles unless time was a major issue and a the title becomes a rushed launch.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

But I'm fine witht that as a consumer, even if it means MS has to work harder.

The danger is that when platforms gain so much inertial through an entrenched userbase upgrading to keep their ecosystem purchases, you end up in the situation where it's borderline impossible for a new competitor to enter the market. Microsoft have been here before with WindowPhone, which never stood a chance. So it's good in that consumers can continue to play the games they've bought, and even have them run better, but the market itself becomes unhealthy.

In the same vein, SteamMachines never stood a chance. Is that a good place to be?

 

[iroboto]

It'll be bad for MS because it'll likely mean PS5 plays all the PS4 games, which hitherto was looking like a key USP of the XBox platform and something MS could have used to woo PS gamers - "leave no game behind!"

plementation of Pro, where games had to be specifically written to take advantage of Pro hardware, I felt it likely that Sony's APIs were just too close to the metal and hardware timing dependant, for games just to work a bit better as we saw with Xbox One S. But it seems like that is not the case which means if Sony chose their nextgen hardware wisely, they can bring the entire PS4/Pro game library and have it scale.

Maybe? AFAIK 4Pro is PS4 that is larger and clocked higher with some added Vega features. Next to no possibility that PS5 will still be running PS4 architecture, which when that transition happens (to Navi and beyond) the true test of API abstraction begins.

I don't see it happening tbh. We're talking 3-4 years from now, and we're going to see some dramatic changes the API, perhaps a complete ground up re-write.

 

[BRiT]

Yes that is true, but will it have major shakeout in the next 5 years or will it take longer? I dont think the short term is much less than that as i dont see PS5 arriving before 2021/2020.

The 4Pro firmware update does have me excited for Scorpio and what experiences it could bring for all the existing games.

Do you suppose if Sony sees huge uptake of 4Pro consoles they would change their business plan and opt to have PS5 be backwards compat? Or will Sony keep to their current plan with a hard break point of PS5 being entirely new generation with no FC/BC?

 

[iroboto]

Yes that is true, but will it have major shakeout in the next 5 years or will it take longer? I dont think the short term is much less than that as i dont see PS5 arriving before 2021/2020.

The 4Pro firmware update does have me excited for Scorpio and what experiences it could bring for all the existing games.

Do you suppose if Sony sees huge uptake of 4Pro consoles they would change their business plan and opt to have PS5 be backwards compat? Or will Sony keep to their current plan with a hard break point of PS5 being entirely new generation with no FC/BC?

with the exception that Scorpio will contain hardware for native Xbox one API specific call conversions like esram, and any other translations required for an architecture change; expect Scorpio to operate like XBO S, as in no reason have concerns about clocking issues.

If Sony wants PS5 to operate like Scorpio they will need to invest in similar technologies to make it happen.

Not sure what Sony would do. Easy to be pessimistic or optimistic about which way they roll. They seem committed to "generations", and they and developers appear to be greatly enjoying the profits from remasters, except, I don't expect remasters from this generation to do well next generation, so I'm leaning on BC enabled.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Do you suppose if Sony sees huge uptake of 4Pro consoles they would change their business plan and opt to have PS5 be backwards compat? Or will Sony keep to their current plan with a hard break point of PS5 being entirely new generation with no FC/BC?

Is that their plan? Was that ever their plan? Whatever it is/was, they would need to be utterly oblivious if they are not expecting Microsoft's gaming space, beit it on Windows or Xbox, to become a progressively powerful but backwards compatible platform. And competing against something like that when your customers have to start anew every 5-6 years is inevitable failure.

Next to no possibility that PS5 will still be running PS4 architecture, which when that transition happens (to Navi and beyond) the true test of API abstraction begins.

And API abstraction of graphics hardware is a well understood. The key is avoiding unnecessary changes to, or deprecating, API functions and not throwing out x86 would be a help too. Everything else you can probably throw to a JIT solution or, additional custom hardware, which is something Sony have a history of.

 

[mosen]

Here are some new information about Xbox & Windows 10 from GDC 2017 session scheduler:

Introducing Spatial Audio Capabilities for Xbox and Windows (Presented by Microsoft)

A key component of audio immersion is sound localization: sounds appearing to come from a specific position in space. In both virtual and augmented worlds, spatial perception can be a critical component to successful user interactions. This talk covers new capabilities of the Windows 10 Creators Update that enable consistent and intuitive spatial implementations that span devices (headphones and speakers), experiences, and technologies.

-It's new to me, anyone heard about this before?

Game Mode and the Evolution of Cross-Platform UWP Game Development (Presented by Microsoft)

UWP will be the game development application model of choice, especially for publishers that want to reach the most customers on the most platforms. Starting in 2017, UWP games can ship through the Windows Store to Xbox One consoles! In addition, Game Mode is a new Windows feature on PCs to make gaming a first class activity. This talk will teach developers how UWP games run on Xbox, how UWP games run better in Windows with Game Mode, and how building a UWP today will future proof your game for the next generation of Microsoft platforms.

-Game Mode seems to be a big thing for Windows/Xbox.

Xbox Live for All Games (Presented by Microsoft)

Get practical, hands-on technical guidance for easily integrating cross-platform Xbox Live experiences in UWP games on Xbox One and Windows 10. Build your UWP game for Windows, add Xbox Live, and ship through the Windows Store to Xbox One consoles and PC.

-They're encouraging developer to make their games Cross-Network (Steam-Xbox) on PC/Xbox consoles?

Meet the Converged Windows Store for Windows and Xbox (Presented by Microsoft)

The new converged Store is bringing the gaming expertise of Xbox together with the advanced merchandising capabilities of Windows. With over xxx million monthly visitors and 80% of purchases games-driven, developers of all sizes have an unprecedented opportunity to find new audiences on current (PC, tablet, console) and future-facing (HoloLens) platforms. Using the unique capabilities of Windows (such as 3D Inking and Cortana integration), as well as the integrated promotional capabilities and deep analytics found only on Windows to drive consumer conversion and monetization, it's easier than ever to take your content to the next level.

-If 80% of all purchases on Windows 10 Store are games then Games/Xbox are very important part of Windows/Microsoft right now.

Windows Holographic Rendering: One SDK to target VR and AR ecosystems (Presented by Microsoft)

In this presentation we discuss the new APIs and tools for windows 10 developers to create a universal holographic applications. Learn how your DirectX application can target both Virtual and Augmented reality devices. Applications that visualize content in the user's environment must ensure a comfortable user experience. The topics we discuss to achieve this goal include:

- Positional tracking and rendering: latency, forward-prediction.
- Holographic Rendering with DirectX: stereo rendering, frame timing, debugging tools and best practices.
- Remote Rendering from a PC to your HoloLens using remoting to increase scene complexity.
- Developing shared holographic experiences on HoloLens.

-I never heard about Remote Rendering for HoloLens using local PCs. Also forward-prediction is something that Microsoft Research have worked on for some times.

Reaching More Gamers Through Xbox Accessibility Features on Xbox One and PC (Presented by Microsoft)

Gaming is an activity that should be enjoyable for everyone, but critical elements like chatting in social multiplayer experiences and basic navigation for some UI designs may pose challenges for some players. To help game developers address these gaps, Xbox has developed a set of free features which solve the top accessibility requests from players to make chat, audio, and low-vision scenarios better for any player. See demonstrations for how we have enabled accessible chat in our Party Chat system on Xbox and Windows. Learn how to use our off-the-shelf APIs that enable Text To Speech, Speech to Text, High Contrast support, and more.

-Sounds really neat.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

If Sony wants PS5 to operate like Scorpio they will need to invest in similar technologies to make it happen.

Maybe they did that already. Maybe their plan from pre-PS4 launch was for compatibility as much as would be technically viable if AMD don't go bust. Unlike Microsoft, who because of the need to be open for Windows developers, Sony don't have to put their plans on display. Their tech is hidden below NDAs for devs on a closed platform.

Hardware abstraction is not the little understood dark art it felt like 15 or even 10 years ago. Modern processors have innate support for most abstraction techniques and because modern processes are fast and abstraction techniques are now very efficient, it's not even a complex problem to solve. Shifting an architecture can present problems but the commonality of the problem, which is the same regardless of your platform, means there is generally clear optimum points of abstraction for low level functions and most games are using those functions.

Maybe Sony aren't the slumbering short-sighted slowpoke I've taken them for.

 

[iroboto]

Maybe they did that already. Maybe their plan from pre-PS4 launch was for compatibility as much as would be technically viable if AMD don't go bust. Unlike Microsoft, who because of the need to be open for Windows developers, Sony don't have to put their plans on display. Their tech is hidden below NDAs for devs on a closed platform.

Hardware abstraction is not the little understood dark art it felt like 15 or even 10 years ago. Modern processors have innate support for most abstraction techniques and because modern processes are fast and abstraction techniques are now very efficient, it's not even a complex problem to solve. Shifting an architecture can present problems but the commonality of the problem, which is the same regardless of your platform, means there is generally clear optimum points of abstraction for low level functions and most games are using those functions.

Maybe Sony aren't the slumbering short-sighted slowpoke I've taken them for.

Not saying it can't be done. Just there has been little to no evidence that is has been designed that way from 2013. I don't mind moving positions based on new information, which to some degree there is some, but we went from "wow it's so low we can touch the memory, not even DX12 can do that", to hey it's abstracted now because of boost.

You can understand why I'm a little cautious of forming that bridge without more information.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Not saying it can't be done. Just there has been little to no evidence that is has been designed that way from 2013. I don't mind moving positions based on new information, which to some degree there is some, but we went from "wow it's so low we can touch the memory, not even DX12 can do that", to hey it's abstracted now because of boost.

I am 100% with you and this is why I am really quite surprised by Boost mode. Sony have never demonstrated any forethought for forward-looking software or hardware design in order to deliver backward compatibility on something in the future. It's always been shoe-in lastgen hardware. Of course, and it's easy to forget, that PS4 was designed by somebody different.

You can understand why I'm a little cautious of forming that bridge without more information.

Me too, me too. But the fact that code written for 2013 hardware even works and works better in different 2016 hardware without patches suggests more than a modicum of forward planning. And it's hard to imagine PS4 Pro not being at least an idea or concept before PS4 launched.