Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[Shifty Geezer]

Game Mode resource management is very similar to XB1:

More on that in the link: http://www.techradar.com/news/windows-10-game-mode-6-of-your-burning-questions-answered

Sadly that sounds like not enough. Putting it another way - what good is Game Mode on a SP4 or other PC if the audio drops out or the Start menu doesn't work? To be a console replacement, all these niggles need be gone. I think the only way to achieve that on a Windows PC is to not run Windows but something safer and more robust like a Windows Lite VM with drivers and whatnot walled off so they just work, no random screwing around.

To be fair on the SP4, it does work most of the time. But there's no way I'd replace a console with a PC based on my current experiences with Win 10. It'll lead to too many problems and no clear benefits.

 

[mosen]

Sadly that sounds like not enough. Putting it another way - what good is Game Mode on a SP4 or other PC if the audio drops out or the Start menu doesn't work? To be a console replacement, all these niggles need be gone. I think the only way to achieve that on a Windows PC is to not run Windows but something safer and more robust like a Windows Lite VM with drivers and whatnot walled off so they just work, no random screwing around.

To be fair on the SP4, it does work most of the time. But there's no way I'd replace a console with a PC based on my current experiences with Win 10. It'll lead to too many problems and no clear benefits.

They need to improve the experience for sure, but it's only get started recently as a beta. Don't judge a feature like this that is not even released.

 

[Davros]

What is the likelihood of continued BC into future generation consoles

I think its high if they continue to use pc cpu's (x86)
@Shifty Geezer whats a sp4 did you mean ps4 ?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I think its high if they continue to use pc cpu's (x86)
@Shifty Geezer whats a sp4 did you mean ps4 ?

I assumed it was Surface Pro 4.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think its high if they continue to use pc cpu's (x86)
@Shifty Geezer whats a sp4 did you mean ps4 ?

Surface Pro 4. Importantly, a MS hardware design running MS own OS. If they can't get that one right, how likely is it all PCs can run like a console and provide hassle-free plug-and-play gaming?

 

[function]

Surface Pro 4. Importantly, a MS hardware design running MS own OS. If they can't get that one right, how likely is it all PCs can run like a console and provide hassle-free plug-and-play gaming?

It's tough to bug fix when you're treading water in the congealing blood of thousands of Nokia employees.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

This is one of my concerns about MS potentially PC'ifying the Xbox. The added capability/flexibility this gives the device brings with it added complexity and more potential for hardware and software problems and I'm not sure that consumers looking to buy a console are going to want to make that trade-off.

While it's a valid concern, I don't think there's too much possibility of that for a variety of reasons.

If we look at it now, XBO is already on the Windows NT kernel. Not much changes between now and the Project Scorpio release except for possibly allowing more UWP applications to be run on console.

They're highly unlikely to implement a full desktop experience on the consoles for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is that a low cost Xbox that can run all desktop applications undermines their OEM partners where it matters (volume PC as opposed to Premium PC like Surface). That isn't somewhere they are willing to go.

That means that many of the services that have to be run on PC just will not exist on an Xbox console (WOW won't be needed, for instance). That lowers the bar with regards to complexity quite significantly. The non-varying hardware also radically reduces the complexity compared to a standard version of Windows. Hence, it not going to be similar in complexity to something like say the Surface line (multiple hardware configurations, full Windows desktop support).

The console OS will be tasked with having to manage a far less complex environment than a full desktop OS. Drivers for the OS will be far simpler as well. USB on an Xbox will never have to potentially drive a USB display or USB audio, etc. You don't need anything there to support Bluetooth pens, Bluetooth audio, Bluetooth networking etc. The list goes on. In being a console, it requires a far less complex OS (and all the driver support that entails) than a full desktop. But that doesn't mean it won't still be the same underlying OS as that used on full desktop PCs.

Oh and one of the major contributors to OS instability? Video card drivers. On a console you can bet that for one, it won't be user installable and that Microsoft will strenuously test video stability as they do on the current XBO.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Surface Pro 4. Importantly, a MS hardware design running MS own OS. If they can't get that one right, how likely is it all PCs can run like a console and provide hassle-free plug-and-play gaming?

The thing there is that the SP4, even though it has relatively few hardware configurations still has to support a full desktop environment and everything that might be asked of a full desktop environment. Something that is significantly more complex than a console. Especially when you consider how many different things can be and are expected to be connected to the SP4. And further compounded by the user being able to install whatever they wish, even if it is something that could destroy or alter the way the OS operates. And further compounded by being able to install whatever drivers they wish. Etc. Which all means you then need added safeguards to deal with those potentialities.

Just having to support those capabilities even if the end user never adds, changes, or installs anything beyond the base configuration, gives it a level of complexity far beyond what would be needed for a Windows Console experience.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I agree, but that requires a Windows Console OS, as it were, that is specifically limited to just running games and a simple access interface. Basically, create XBOne OS frontend on a similar VM on any PC and allow access to that from Windows. It puts the Windows OS to sleep so none of those services or software running and just uses minimal 'clean' drivers. It's doable, but no-one's going there from what I can see.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I agree, but that requires a Windows Console OS, as it were, that is specifically limited to just running games and a simple access interface. Basically, create XBOne OS frontend on a similar VM on any PC and allow access to that from Windows. It puts the Windows OS to sleep so none of those services or software running and just uses minimal 'clean' drivers. It's doable, but no-one's going there from what I can see.

Almost. Basically an Xbox console using Windows (similar to the XBO) just doesn't need all those services in the first place. Hence, they wouldn't be included on an Xbox console running Windows.

Similar to, but more extensive than, the difference between Windows Server, Windows Professional, and Windows Home. Added to those we'd just have Windows Xbox with far less services included than even Windows Home. And most definitely wouldn't include all the legacy drivers and support that Windows Home requires.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Almost. Basically an Xbox console using Windows (similar to the XBO) just doesn't need all those services in the first place. Hence, they wouldn't be included on an Xbox console running Windows.

We were talking about adding XBox to Windows PCs.

Game Mode/Xbox app/XPA/Xbox Live are only the beginning IMO and Microsoft will eventually introduce Xbox dashboard/OS for Windows 10.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

We were talking about adding XBox to Windows PCs.

Ooops, my bad. Yeah, there you'd have the same issues that Steam users face with Big Picture Mode. It can be problematic, but for most would run relatively smoothly.

Regards,
SB

 

[mrcorbo]

While it's a valid concern, I don't think there's too much possibility of that for a variety of reasons.

If we look at it now, XBO is already on the Windows NT kernel. Not much changes between now and the Project Scorpio release except for possibly allowing more UWP applications to be run on console.

They're highly unlikely to implement a full desktop experience on the consoles for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is that a low cost Xbox that can run all desktop applications undermines their OEM partners where it matters (volume PC as opposed to Premium PC like Surface). That isn't somewhere they are willing to go.

To be clear, I completely agree with you and that's why I posted yet another reason why I felt that way on top of the others I had posted previously.

 

[iroboto]

Since we're on this topic, I did actually email Phil Spencer about this particular topic, I wrote a 6 paragraph essay. (At least related some time back)
I speculated that if XBLG could morph itself into a choice between 4 free games a month or Office 365 personal access, that the stickiness of the ecosystem would be much higher.
I did follow up with the idea that XBO supporting Mouse + Keyboard alongside Office, would make the consoles into desktop lites, a perfect niche item for post secondary graduates who require computing power, but do not want to compromise their gaming experience (with a laptop per se)

His response:

Thanks for the recommendation. We have done this bundle in the past:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2906...le-is-back-and-more-convenient-than-ever.html

You could see us doing it again at some point.

I took that to mean they've probably considered it, but doesn't seem high on their priority list. It would appear that at the moment they want to keep Xbox a gaming first machine.

 

[iroboto]

I think its high if they continue to use pc cpu's (x86)
@Shifty Geezer whats a sp4 did you mean ps4 ?

Yea I guess you're right. 360 was hacked in the past, and they still continue BC with it today.
Piracy is a non issue it would appear.

 

[mosen]

Since we're on this topic, I did actually email Phil Spencer about this particular topic, I wrote a 6 paragraph essay. (At least related some time back)
I speculated that if XBLG could morph itself into a choice between 4 free games a month or Office 365 personal access, that the stickiness of the ecosystem would be much higher.
I did follow up with the idea that XBO supporting Mouse + Keyboard alongside Office, would make the consoles into desktop lites, a perfect niche item for post secondary graduates who require computing power, but do not want to compromise their gaming experience (with a laptop per se)

His response:

I took that to mean they've probably considered it, but doesn't seem high on their priority list. It would appear that at the moment they want to keep Xbox a gaming first machine.

IF they had the ability to convert Scorpio to an accessory for existing windows PCs to act as a secondary CPU/GPU for playing games, rendering etc., that would be a cool and somehow useful capability.

 

[turkey]

Yea I guess you're right. 360 was hacked in the past, and they still continue BC with it today.
Piracy is a non issue it would appear.

I am not sure I follow, the big piracy on 360 was custom DVD drives so although there are probably loads of pirate disks about they have no pirate use on Xbox One so allowing 360 games via BC does not translate to any piracy on Xbox One, if anything it acts to reward good customers who own retail copies of these games and punish the pirates who cannot get the BC version due to no valid disk.

The true hacks of the 360 system I am not sure are applicable to the Xbox One unless you can alter their signed Xbox One game which itself contains the 360 emulation to try and exploit that, I suspect that as an attack vector is little different to attacking and normal retail game.

 

[Scott_Arm]

IF they had the ability to convert Scorpio to an accessory for existing windows PCs to act as a secondary CPU/GPU for playing games, rendering etc., that would be a cool and somehow useful capability.

I always kind of liked the idea of a pci card that had a full console on it, minus drives, usb ports and storage. Probably doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons, but maybe setup like an external GPU it could work. I wonder how small they could make a PS4 or Xbox One if they removed all of the extraneous stuff, and it was just the processors, memory and cooling. It would basically be like buying a GPU, but it would happen to have a CPU as well.

 

[iroboto]

I am not sure I follow, the big piracy on 360 was custom DVD drives so although there are probably loads of pirate disks about they have no pirate use on Xbox One so allowing 360 games via BC does not translate to any piracy on Xbox One, if anything it acts to reward good customers who own retail copies of these games and punish the pirates who cannot get the BC version due to no valid disk.

The true hacks of the 360 system I am not sure are applicable to the Xbox One unless you can alter their signed Xbox One game which itself contains the 360 emulation to try and exploit that, I suspect that as an attack vector is little different to attacking and normal retail game.

yea I was just wondering if piracy would ever have an effect on BC. For some reason I thought it would, especially if we decide to use the same architecture again, that the games would still be open for exploit. But it's pretty obvious that shouldn't be true.

 

[iroboto]

IF they had the ability to convert Scorpio to an accessory for existing windows PCs to act as a secondary CPU/GPU for playing games, rendering etc., that would be a cool and somehow useful capability.

I imagine there are a lot of poeple that don't actually require the full desktop experience anymore and that such a device would be sufficient for most peoples needs.