Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

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cannot help it, after the small thread flurry lets add some fuel to the fire at the mill


https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824339217430040578

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I guess cpu architecture does not instantly equate to more power, it may be to reduce mm2 or tdp at a pre defined performance level. Many "budgets" to appease when designing the SOC
Rumours are fun! :)
We've done a good job here at b3d though, everyone is fairly grounded. There are 3 threads full of mental gymnastics on GAF over this. Talking about generations, zen, and power. They have been doing a great job marketing Scorpio over relatively no news.

but it does bring into question at least for me whether SM 6 requires new hardware. I have no doubt it was supposed to be released with dx12, but arrived late.

Considering some of its feature set, it looks like Vega was designed, maxwell and pascal are already set, for SM6. Some of those features carried into 4Pro (half precision functions), but perhaps not all? Maybe that's why that developer referred to 4Pro as being not fully next generation, or rather that Scorpio is full blown next gen.
 
cannot help it, after the small thread flurry lets add some fuel to the fire at the mill


https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824339217430040578

View attachment 1847

I guess cpu architecture does not instantly equate to more power, it may be to reduce mm2 or tdp at a pre defined performance level. Many "budgets" to appease when designing the SOC

Has he ever shown he has access to this kind of information though? He released NPD figures early so he clearly has a source there but i dont remember him having any Xbox scoops

I would have more faith if this was Tom Warren
 
Perhaps if CPU is really that critical. Scorpio coming in at FL 12_2 would be huge. I would consider that a generation gap despite the modest power increase.

I think that's a good way to look at it - features rather than just flops!

input lag would detract from premium experience Imo.
it's the fact that they are already talking about those types of cpu cost savings that I find worrying/interesting.

No doubt it would significantly reduce workload on the CPU, but it could also be a way to reduce the GPU load of hitting (a perceived) 60 fps. "The feel" of 60 fps with "the look" of 30 fps might be a decent compromise. Not going to help that input response tho ......
 
Has he ever shown he has access to this kind of information though? He released NPD figures early so he clearly has a source there but i dont remember him having any Xbox scoops

I would have more faith if this was Tom Warren
I would say yes he does have contacts.
I wouldn't personally except his interpretation of things though.
if he says A, B, so C.
I would believe A and B individually, and even then I would be careful about his understanding of B.

he just tries to draw too many conclusions, not malicious just over eager and not technically savvy.
so just need to parse what he says
 
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I would say yes he does have contacts.
I wouldn't personally except his interpretation of things though.
if he says A, B, so C.
I would believe A and B individually, and even then I would be careful about his understanding of B.

he just tries to draw too many conclusions, not malicious just over eager and not technically savvy.
so just need to parse what he says

This tweet right there: https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824079458252378112 Shows that he clearly doesn't know what the F he's talking about..so let's not get too worked up about what he tweets about.
 
Maybe he was joking.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
WindowsCentral (formerly known as WindowsPhoneCentral -> WindowsMobileCentral-> PockePCCentral) isn't and never was a bastion of tech savvy folks at all . It's no AnandTech :). They even took a turn to the worst when rebranding to WindowsCentral, they only act as Microsoft's PR mouthpiece now & clutter their pages with worthless paid ads/articles (for apps/games, accessory etc..). or silly stuff simply aimed at SEO ("How to change your desktop Background in Windows 10" "How to turn Off you Windows 10 PC" & more crap like that).
 
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I'm uncertain about how Scorpio handles compatibility with the Xbox One, and if it won't make some of the same trade-offs as the PS4 Pro.
I thought it was later clarified that the backward compatibility work for Scorpio would not be needed for compatibility with the Xbox One.
Maybe there are differences in how paranoid Microsoft is about binary compatibility, or when the binary instructions are generated and supplied to the GPU, otherwise there are some omissions and incompatibilities between the CI generation and anything after--much less Vega.
The Pro appears to have borrowed some elements from Vega, either in the form of hardware that is relatively abstracted like compression and primitive distribution, or certain instructions that might be shoe-horned in around the existing CI ISA like 2x FP16.

There are instructions that would be dropped or completely reworked after CI, such as various atomics and very different scalar memory instructions. There would also be slight changes within the other parts of the ISA (tweaks to functions, slightly different places in the encoding space for the same functionality) that might mean most of it stays the same as CI, so the Vega-like portions are actually encoded in a way Vega wouldn't recognize.

I think the Pro keeps those parts the same as the original. Scorpio may have a heavier abstraction to allow a more fundamental shift to a different GPU generation. Otherwise, there's either a lot of work to create a dual-compatible Vega, or it has a hybrid implementation that has parts of its architecture rooted in Durango that a next-gen console would discard.
you might have noticed that they seem to have changed their stance towards BC,saying that Scorpio is going to be BC with X1 games,but they don't mention all games anymore. Does anyone program games at a very low level these days?
They are promoing heavely VR in creators update, and have standardized low cost vr helmet, so at least scorpio will be compatible
I hope you are right. As I said before, the new definition of Scorpio doesn't touch the VR at all.

For those with bionic eyes....

140hfep.jpg
 
you might have noticed that they seem to have changed their stance towards BC,saying that Scorpio is going to be BC with X1 games,but they don't mention all games anymore. Does anyone program games at a very low level these days?

At some point, the higher-level representation has to translate down to the ISA encoding and architectural behaviors. Later architectures would have changed the low-level behaviors, and I am not sure if there isn't precompiled code that won't be replaceable without additional software effort.
The last change in Microsoft's stance on BC was that it stated the software efforts for compatibility were for 360 and older consoles, and the Xbox One was clarified as not being subject to it.
I haven't been able to keep track of the fragmented messaging on this.
 
At some point, the higher-level representation has to translate down to the ISA encoding and architectural behaviors. Later architectures would have changed the low-level behaviors, and I am not sure if there isn't precompiled code that won't be replaceable without additional software effort.
The last change in Microsoft's stance on BC was that it stated the software efforts for compatibility were for 360 and older consoles, and the Xbox One was clarified as not being subject to it.
I haven't been able to keep track of the fragmented messaging on this.
I dont think that's done using low level languages like machine code or assembly, but high level languages.

You can go by these two pictures. First is the picture after last year's E3, second shows the current state of affairs.

2TMEGFA.jpg


zLL4D4h.jpg
 
Crazy Idea.
Crazy idea?
CR4Y ID

The 8 Scorpio cores are ARM A9001 cores running an offshoot of MS's new x86 on ARM emulator. For BC mode they drop GPU power and ramp up the ARM cores to TIGER gHz.

Where are AMD up to with their custom so-hot-right-now server ARM cores?
 
I dont think that's done using low level languages like machine code or assembly, but high level languages.
Regardless of how it is initially programmed, it has to be brought down to binary with the appropriate encodings and architectural behaviors baked in. The GPUs after CI changed the encodings, and there are some behaviors that are no longer the same. I am not sure I would count on Vega being compatible with the prior generation, and even less likely to align with the prior-prior generation.

Sony's compatibility method allowed the hardware to natively run existing binaries without additional software effort. If Microsoft's policy is that it doesn't have some binaries that are similarly baked-in with their games, or there is a thicker layer of emulation they haven't discussed, that's fine. Some of the changes in the GPU ISA are large enough that they'd be encountered immediately unless something was translating the code specifically for the new silicon, or the silicon was built to handle old code.
 
And to make things perfectly clear.... https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824670358120828930 He's just runnin' his mouth & simply doesn't hava clue. Case Closed.
lol. Sad that he considers himself a journalist? At the least an senior editor for journalism. I think the web while it does great things, has some serious issues that require resolution. People just writing whatever they want and passing it off as fact needs to be looked at.
 
And to make things perfectly clear.... https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824670358120828930 He's just runnin' his mouth & simply doesn't hava clue. Case Closed.
I’m sure he does have some internal documents, doesn’t mean he interprets them anywhere close to correctly though.
This is going to sound bad, but don’t attribute malice when it’s stupidity.
He’s not lying, he just doesn’t know what he’s talking about
 
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