PS4 Pro and even PS4 are doing VR
Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]
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I have a feeling that MS don't care about VR anymore
or it could be cleaning up the messaging, it's simply compatible period, therefore no need for the word all.
it wouldn't surprise me if at some point they remove the separate games and accessories part and just leave it as compatible with Xbox one.
need to talk as same family, not like it's a new gen with bc etc
same way don't have to say slim is compatible with games and accessories with fat. Even though you need adapter for kinect.
input lag would detract from premium experience Imo.
it's the fact that they are already talking about those types of cpu cost savings that I find worrying/interesting.
Next Generation/Generations are defined by a start and end date.On the discussion on whether Scorpio is a new generation machine or not, Thomas Mahler from Moon Studios says that Scorpio is a brand new generation machine.
4Pro and PS4 die together, hence his wording to (kinda half assed) as in, if they didn't let 4Pro die with PS4, it would be a generation on its own.
Scorpio will continue after XBO is discontinued, hence it's a generation.
Generations do not need to be defined by it's computational power, I am personally more likely to define generations by their feature set.
Why would he be an authority on what constitutes a next-gen machine? We don't need arbitrary people calling it as much or not, but people defining what a generation is. Actually, we don't. Thinking in terms of generations is just stupid nowadays. We've moved on. The only time we need a clear distinction for a new gen is when it can't play old software and needs new content. In that case you know as a consumer you are starting fresh once again. Anything else is just another console.
eg. Ouya wasn't a new generation machine.
I suppose marketing will want a new generation if it suits them. Certainly marketing Scorpio as the next generation console could be advantageous. However that could back fire if it's games look the same as the old gen except at 4k. We've never had a generation where the graphics haven't advanced massively (save Wii!
) and trying to sell the same visual tier as next-gen could leave MS with egg on their face. It needs to be producing games (visuals) clearly beyond what's possible now to pass as a new generation among savvy gamers.
It's also the reverse, when latest games can't be played on the previous hardware, and you need to buy the "new gen" to play the shiny new releases. Wii, gamecube, or PS1/2/3 were full BC and that didn't change the distinction of generations.
The mandatory FC of mid-gen which makes it difficult to call it a new gen. From the consumer point of view it's the same gen with better specs. But as soon as they allow exclusives, it's a new gen, regardless of the full BC aspect or even the single binary for cross-mid-gen titles.
Yeah, that's the more apt definition. Basically a point where people need new hardware to play new games.
You mean if. Could well never happen. Pro certainly isn't enough of an advance to be a low-end next-gen machine, and I doubt Scorpio will be either from present expectations. Both are 4K current-gen machines and I expect architectural advances next gen leaving these machines in the dust. Not to mention that they'll likely never sell enough to warranty targeting as mainstream devices.
This depends on the type of experience they are intending to deliver, no? GearVR does VR framerates with a mobile CPU and PSVR exists.
FWIW, I'm actually fully expecting E3 to be a coming out party for MS's VR initiative which will start at the low end with Scorpio + headset + VR controller and scale up to Super-Hyper-Ultra PC build with the store allowing them to curate which experiences are suitable for Scorpio and which require the power of a PC.
in terms of Scorpio, could sell enough if when next gen is ready to release it drops to the current x1s price point.
whether it's got the power to be used as their mainstream machine is another matter though.
at that point x1s gets eol (would've been out about min 7+ years which isn't that bad)
The amount of power means it's going to be actually technically difficult to eclipse Scorpio in a meaningful way (especially if you think of 10X as a new generation, means next gen from Scorpio needs 60 Teraflops!) in power anytime soon, for several years even. So no matter the potential upgrade scenario it is better off.
You'll be able to do a better than Scorpio console in a year or 2 at the earliest, but what you wont be able to do is blow the doors off scorpio in a way consumers can see for probably, 3-5 years or longer. At that point MS can just move to either their true next gen, or another more powerful yet iterative console AKA "Scorpio 2", but have the benefit of a more powerful Scorpio baseline. Depending IMO on how the wind is blowing.
The point is strategically going for the technical gold was a great move by Spencer. It's already arguably marginalized the competition by hype factor alone. PS4 Pro is already out but the talk is about Scorpio. Similar to how when Dreamcast was already out, talk and hype was about the looming but not yet released PS2, and that crippled Dreamcast a lot.
They are promoing heavely VR in creators update, and have standardized low cost vr helmet, so at least scorpio will be compatible
A next-gen is not going to come from more power but from smarter hardware. I'm sure we've had this discussion before... Stacked RAM and an excess of bandwidth will present options. Smarter GPUs with better compute. I don't know if there's going to be a lot architectural improvement in that regard. SSDs or similar fast local storage for lower latency working space.
Putting it another way, a PS2 Pro released a year before XB360 wouldn't have been a next-gen console; its architecture would have held it back. The delta between Scorpio's architecture and a potential next-gen machine won't be as great, but that's where a true generational advance will happen if it does. As I say though, generations is a stupid concept. We shouldn't talk about it unless a console company literally announces one, a new platform that receives exclusives not possible on previous machines. Scorpio will only be that new hardware generation if that new generation is clearly delineated (PS5 say without PS4 versions of the games) and Scorpio gets ports.
Putting it another way, a PS2 Pro released a year before XB360 wouldn't have been a next-gen console; its architecture would have held it back. The delta between Scorpio's architecture and a potential next-gen machine won't be as great, but that's where a true generational advance will happen if it does. As I say though, generations is a stupid concept. We shouldn't talk about it unless a console company literally announces one, a new platform that receives exclusives not possible on previous machines. Scorpio will only be that new hardware generation if that new generation is clearly delineated (PS5 say without PS4 versions of the games) and Scorpio gets ports.
Gpu maybe.
if it's a higher clocked jaguar then not so much the case.
if ps5 is a full on next gen machine (doesn't have to worry about 4pro), therefore running games that you wouldn't be able to scale down to the Scorpio cpu then that could leave it in an awkward position.
rest of system I think could scale to mainstream position with lot less trouble.
I'm uncertain about how Scorpio handles compatibility with the Xbox One, and if it won't make some of the same trade-offs as the PS4 Pro.
I thought it was later clarified that the backward compatibility work for Scorpio would not be needed for compatibility with the Xbox One.
Maybe there are differences in how paranoid Microsoft is about binary compatibility, or when the binary instructions are generated and supplied to the GPU, otherwise there are some omissions and incompatibilities between the CI generation and anything after--much less Vega.
The Pro appears to have borrowed some elements from Vega, either in the form of hardware that is relatively abstracted like compression and primitive distribution, or certain instructions that might be shoe-horned in around the existing CI ISA like 2x FP16.
There are instructions that would be dropped or completely reworked after CI, such as various atomics and very different scalar memory instructions. There would also be slight changes within the other parts of the ISA (tweaks to functions, slightly different places in the encoding space for the same functionality) that might mean most of it stays the same as CI, so the Vega-like portions are actually encoded in a way Vega wouldn't recognize.
I think the Pro keeps those parts the same as the original. Scorpio may have a heavier abstraction to allow a more fundamental shift to a different GPU generation. Otherwise, there's either a lot of work to create a dual-compatible Vega, or it has a hybrid implementation that has parts of its architecture rooted in Durango that a next-gen console would discard.
I thought it was later clarified that the backward compatibility work for Scorpio would not be needed for compatibility with the Xbox One.
Maybe there are differences in how paranoid Microsoft is about binary compatibility, or when the binary instructions are generated and supplied to the GPU, otherwise there are some omissions and incompatibilities between the CI generation and anything after--much less Vega.
The Pro appears to have borrowed some elements from Vega, either in the form of hardware that is relatively abstracted like compression and primitive distribution, or certain instructions that might be shoe-horned in around the existing CI ISA like 2x FP16.
There are instructions that would be dropped or completely reworked after CI, such as various atomics and very different scalar memory instructions. There would also be slight changes within the other parts of the ISA (tweaks to functions, slightly different places in the encoding space for the same functionality) that might mean most of it stays the same as CI, so the Vega-like portions are actually encoded in a way Vega wouldn't recognize.
I think the Pro keeps those parts the same as the original. Scorpio may have a heavier abstraction to allow a more fundamental shift to a different GPU generation. Otherwise, there's either a lot of work to create a dual-compatible Vega, or it has a hybrid implementation that has parts of its architecture rooted in Durango that a next-gen console would discard.
The way I've always seen it. Maybe more obvious if I illustrate what I'm trying to get at:
Common themes between generations:
- Shader Model Changes
- Features switch from No/Optional to Yes
- Last Gen DX9: October 2002
- Current Gen Dx11: October 22, 2009 (7 years)
- Next Gen DX12+: ?? 2016/2017? (7+ years)
Power has traditionally gone up with each generation (but power can be mitigated by resolution), I really think the devil is in the details.
ie. SM6.0 requires D3D12_FEATURE_DATA_D3D12_OPTIONS1
I'm not sure which cards have that feature. You can certainly program for it, but I've haven't found any data suggesting which/if any cards today are SM6 ready.
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cannot help it, after the small thread flurry lets add some fuel to the fire at the mill
https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824339217430040578
I guess cpu architecture does not instantly equate to more power, it may be to reduce mm2 or tdp at a pre defined performance level. Many "budgets" to appease when designing the SOC
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