Microsoft Xbox Reveal Event - May 21, 2013

[Deleted member 13524]

You could call the PS3 an "elitist" console since it debut at launch prices well beyond the norm with a optical disc player meant for HDTVs while most technological advanced nations were still living in a SDTV based world.

Every product that is sold for a lot more than the average selling price of similar products is a product for an elite, yes.
What's the point? What does this have to do with always-on requirements?

You could call Live a "elitist" service since it debut when the majority of even some of the most technological advanced nations were still on dial up connections.

Are Netflix's streaming or Pandora's "elitist" services because they don't accommodate offline use?

Those are services, not products. It's not hard to tell the difference.

You know whats elitist? To think that a console manufacturer is somehow wrong because it chooses not to service your special needs. If you are an edge case where you need a console to operate regularly outside the norms of everyday gaming then there is a device for you, its called a PS4. If for some reason the PS4 is similar to the XB1 in requirements then you have a PS3 or XB360 to service your needs.

You really want a universal console? Then you need to start advocating for the cheapest offline gaming machine that can accommodate even the consumers of the poorest nations.

So the people with an unstable or periodically unavailable internet connection are an edge case?

That's funny. In a bad way.

 

[Cjail]

b) Many people would rather buy games on disc 'cos they want to save hard drive space.

This is a case of: "Space on a shelf VS space on a HDD."
An HDD can contain more games/books/CD than a shelf for instance.

c) Many people like to have a game disc in order to be able to sell it back later.

They could give us the possibility to re-sell digital copies as well using their online store/marketplace.
Same practice, different system and if the a percentage of the transaction goes to the dev/publishers and the store owner then everyone is happy.

d) Then there is the Collector's Editions...can you get that via PlayStation Network / XB Live?

Well digital CE exist as well, simply instead of extra physical content you get extra digital content like DLC, skins, OST, themes, avatars, etc...

e) Some have slow (mine is 6MB, which is not bad, but nothing to write home about) internet connections and don't feel like waiting an entire day or a few days for a 10-50GB game to download.

This is THE big problem and the main obstacle to digital delivery, could gaming and always online.

 

[SMOKE]

no... you missed my point. I said readers did not follow his LOGIC (and some still don't) and jumped to the wrong conclusions and over reacted as usual.

Ok, now I have heard it all....

3. Used Games

This is one of the most controversial pieces of the Xbox One puzzle.

I admit to being perhaps a little too sanguine about this at first, or at least about reports that Microsoft and game publishers might take a piece of the used game pie from GameStop.

The real issue with used games isn’t GameStop (whose business model I’m not a fan of) but rather the end-user.

According to statements made by Phil Harrison (both at Kotaku and Eurogamer) the age of used games isn’t quite over, but things will never be the same.

Basically if you want to lend a game to a friend they can either log into your account to play it for free, or pay for the game (probably at full retail price) if they want to play it on their Xbox Live account. This is because games are no longer really being sold, they’re being licensed. The physical disc is just a delivery system, and the “bits on the disc” are not as important as the code downloaded to your hard drive.

What Microsoft is doing here is both sensible and a bit ahead of its time. I say “sensible” in that they’re basically emulating the digital distribution model already in place on PC with a platform like Steam. If I own a Steam game I can play it on any computer, but if a friend wants to play it they’ll need to log into my account to do so.


The future of used games and their retailers remains unclear.

The problem here is that unlike PC, console gamers are used to buying (and then lending or selling or trading in) physical copies of their games. The age of digital distribution and all of its drawbacks and benefits has not arrived for console gamers yet. It will, and Microsoft is sensible enough to anticipate it, but there will be some big bumps along the way.

For one thing, while many different digital distribution platforms exist on PC in competition with one another, this is not the case on consoles. Currently there is no real pricing competition between Sony and Microsoft, meaning that the lower prices we often see on a platform like Steam and its competitors, haven’t arrived on consoles yet. I believe they will, eventually, when one of these console manufacturers realizes that they can make their system enormously attractive by offering cheaper games than the competition, but we’re not there yet.

One way Microsoft could really take the sting out of this would be to make digital copies of games cheaper than retail from day one. Another would be to allow for free transfers of game codes, or for a lending system similar to Amazon’s Kindle lending (whereby one book at a time can be loaned out to another device.)

“The bits that are on the disc, I can give to anybody else, but if we both want to play it at the same time, we both have to own it,” Harrison told Eurogamer. “That’s no different to how discs operate today.”

But it is different.

If I lend you my game today I certainly couldn’t play it at the same time as you, but you could play it to your heart’s content without paying and you could keep playing until you give it back to me (or “lose” it.)

You can do all of this without logging into my account, which is a huge inconvenience for me, since I’d no longer be able to log into it to play my games, or watch Netflix, etc. One purchase for one game that could be played only by one person at a time is what we have already. What Microsoft is describing is something much more costly to consumers.

Now this part right here is what makes your 'out of context' arguement invalid, there is no deactivate my account so you could play it on yours. Its all tied to the original owners account and if you want to play my game there are 2 ways and none of which you deciphered out of this thats in lamens terms and has the internet in an uproar and the first I ever heard of such claims!


Microsoft could easily implement a system of game sharing that prevented people from playing at the same time but didn’t require separate purchases or account sharing. They could do all of this while still requiring better policies out of used game retailers and still not prevent peer-to-peer transactions.

If Microsoft wants to change the used game landscape to pave the way toward digital distribution, they can do so without implementing hugely anti-consumer practices at the same time. Indeed, they have an opportunity to do digital distribution right. There’s no reason they can’t make buckets of money while still benefiting the consumer.

 

[SMOKE]

what is there to not understand about tbhis?


this is what he was trying to explain to people when they did not follow his logic and jumped to the conclusion that you had to pay for every used game.

NO. You have to pay for every ITERATION that derived from EACH DISC. otherwise people would share installing the game from each disc onto many HDD's.

U are not making any sense, and if there is anyone here understanding what this person is saying can you re-iterate it for me so I can better understand. Or maybe he is truly not getting it at all but besides that I give up on it as its just a lost cause. Since you have the magic decipher what Phil said marker, why on earth has no one else said anything to support what you claim to be getting from phil?

 

[dobwal]

So you are telling me a high level rep for MS would get something like this absolutely wrong when he clearly answered the questioned in complete detail?

In a reality where a feature set is not etched in stone and the situation is very fluid so a console manufacturer can attempt to accommodate the desires of it userbase, it can happen very easily.

 

[AlphaWolf]

People with unstable or periodically unavailable internet might never notice provided those instabilities and periods don't extend into more than a day. If your internet is typically down for 24h or more you probably are an edge case or live in the Sudan or something.

I don't like the idea of required online activation but I think people are playing the MS usage of it into a bigger issue than it is in reality. Diablo 3 will not run if you are not online, this has not stopped it from being the best selling pc game since the last blizzard game. MS's system looks to be much more forgiving and people will probably learn to live with it.

 

[Tap In]

Ok, now I have heard it all....
.

Are you arguing with me that 1) used games were alleged to cost full price (which was always wrong and logic failed the internet) or 2) are you now arguing that you can't just give your disc to a buddy to play for as long as he want?


because I've clearly answered 1)

2) is just the new way things need to be done to not have to have the disc in the tray... and yes hopefully our buddies can still play our disc but to ensure that we can not play it at the same time, we would have to deactivate it from our HDD.

We do not know yet HOW that will work. some are assuming that because of used game sales you will not be avle to do it your self but one of the interviews give=n also said there would be a simple tool in the dash so we can deactivate it ourselves.

Bottom line, you are getting all worked up over something that was 1) misunderstood, 2) is completely unclear and unannounced and as far as I can tell, still being decided and the only problem so far is that nobody should have said shit about it until they were ready to reveal the whole plan

 

[SMOKE]

In a reality where a feature set is not etched in stone and the situation is very fluid so a console manufacturer can attempt to accommodate the desires of it userbase, it can happen very easily.

Yes it can, but these comments of Phil's is what started all this in the first place correct? This was minutes after their highly anticipated reveal!

After the backlash from his comments, now we are at a state where "everything is up in the air" now and we'll get back to you later. Reminds me of that "How much is the PS3 gonna cost Crazy Ken", "You're gonna need 2 jobs", "its $599"!

Well something tells me its gonna be a while before MS decides on what to do regarding this policy, I dont think 2 weeks is enough time to go back to the drawing boards on this unless they just scrapped it period!

 

[warb]

Smoke, I think you're jumping to some fairly wild conclusions.

What Phil Harrison said was hardly conclusive to begin with, especially with the way he said it and the contradictory comments from others. One thing is for sure though, they will not have you giving someone else your profile details to lend games. It will be a transfer of the license if anything, so you can't access the game with your profile until you get the game back.

That would have to be done when the disc is installed to the other guys system. Meaning at the very least he'd have to be online when he installs it, and you would have to be online to play the game on your box without a disc. If you wanted to play it at the same time, you'd have to buy another copy.


This would work for the sale of used games too, but still nothing seems confirmed.

 

[SMOKE]

Smoke, I think you're jumping to some some fairly wild conclusions.

What Phil Harrison said was hardly conclusive to begin with, especially with the way he said it and the contradictory comments from others. One thing is for sure though, they will not have you giving someone else your profile details to lend games. It will be a transfer of the license if anything, so you can't access the game with your profile until you get it back.

That would have to be done when the disc is installed to the other guys system. Meaning at the very least he'd have to be online when he installs it, and you would have to be online to play the game on your box without a disc. If you wanted to play it at the same time, you'd have to buy another copy.


This would work for the sale of used games too, but still nothing seems confirmed.

Sorry, im not coming up/to some wild conclusions, I provided proof of what started all this and I have said before, this was brought up long before anyone at MS (except of adam orth) confirmed the rumors regarding DRM and always online. The backlash from this has them in a tight corner from every gaming site in the world.

I understand the wait and see approach, but we all just came from that scenario leading up to this press conference when MS wouldnt respond to these rumors to begin with. When it got confirmed it was spinned into just a 24hr check in, do we know what happens exactly if we dont check in every 24 hours?

Im excited for nex gen like everyone else, but im being realistic as possible and keeping an open mind to all this is all. Phil is not a Major Nelson, he is pretty high up in the ranks of the people that would know full well whats going on. Last minute decisions dont pan out too well in any industry let alone one as big as gaming.

To me MS assumed that the hardcore wouldnt have reacted as bad as they did to what phil said about used games, now they're back pedaling on it 4hrs after the fact... OHHH K!

 

[Cranky]

I know what you tried to do. Hence why you were pointed to the fallacy of your own argument. Just by bringing the "conspiracy theorist" argument makes me wonder if you have even comprehended what I said.


Making assumptions to prove a point is not an argument. Selectively looking only at specific metrics (not that you have the numbers for those anyways) and ignoring others is good for marketing and PR and amateur work in terms of operating a business...and still not an argument.

I am still waiting from you to cover my previous raised points but you keep maneuvering them

Sony? Your personal opinion about PS4? Fanboy fantasies? Wishful thinking? I have no idea what this has to do with the discussion we are having. I dont recall myself comparing PS4 and the XBone in our discussion, or making any reference to the subjects you cover here. And you also make hypothetical scenarios about the future? To make what point? It really makes someone wonder if you are just trolling. You may be using good wording to impress but your arguments have no substance

Wow. I am at a loss as how to reply without someone taking offense.

 

[XpiderMX]

To me MS assumed that the hardcore wouldnt have reacted as bad as they did to what phil said about used games, now they're back pedaling on it 4hrs after the fact... OHHH K!

Well, reacting to comments from future users is not a bad thing at all. If they can change some things, it is fine for me.

 

[AlphaWolf]

@smoke

Your 'proof' is pathetic.

 

[Cyan]

You could call Live a "elitist" service since it debut when the majority of even some of the most technological advanced nations were still on dial up connections.

You could call the PS3 an "elitist" console since it debut at launch prices well beyond the norm with a optical disc player meant for HDTVs while most technological advanced nations were still living in a SDTV based world.

Are Netflix's streaming or Pandora's "elitist" services because they don't accommodate offline use?

You know whats elitist? To think that a console manufacturer is somehow wrong because it chooses not to service your special needs. If you are an edge case where you need a console to operate regularly outside the norms of everyday gaming then there is a device for you, its called a PS4. If for some reason the PS4 is similar to the XB1 in requirements then you have a PS3 or XB360 to service your needs.

You really want a universal console? Then you need to start advocating for the cheapest offline gaming machine that can accommodate even the consumers of the poorest nations.

PSN and XBL are optional, the console is perfectly functional without them.

What's so special about my needs? I am just a human being.

My point was not about me, this is a collective human consciousness, at a very concentrated level, because it has affected so many of us.

Now people are in a state of confusion and pointing fingers, about making the console more universally compatible and some choices more palatable.

Awareness makes things flow correctly, but now that confusion reigns, chaos is king.

If other countries weren't important then I wonder why Microsoft are beginning to sell the Xbox 360 in the minor markets, as they hope to achieve 25 million sales in the next few years. :smile:

If you play elitist, then you are not doing a favour to any company. On the contrary, only you and 4 other people are going to buy the console.

Sometimes we need to get ourselves in check when these levels of negative energy are happening, and realising you are emitting judgment in the wrong way.

People with unstable or periodically unavailable internet might never notice provided those instabilities and periods don't extend into more than a day. If your internet is typically down for 24h or more you probably are an edge case or live in the Sudan or something.

I don't like the idea of required online activation but I think people are playing the MS usage of it into a bigger issue than it is in reality. Diablo 3 will not run if you are online, this has not stopped it from being the best selling pc game since the last blizzard game. MS's system looks to be much more forgiving and people will probably learn to live with it.

I can tell you that I was one of those who bought the game but hated it to death afterwards. I expected so much...

It didn't help that SP offline was never available, all the levels were created in the servers. I lost all the sense of ownership that a physical (or even if it's digital, if the game is sp offline) games gives you. As if I had paid for something I didn't own.

In that sense the console's versions are the best versions, imho. They can be played online but also offline.

 

[Nesh]

*Zoolander's voice* : fanman... FANMAN !

This is objectively intellectually dishonest. Can you point to any territory where the 360 has done worse than the XBOX? The 360 has sold-in ~78M units vs the XBOX ~24M. In which territories has the PS3 done better than the PS2? (I actually don't know this but it certainly isn't US, UK, Japan, and I don't believe Germany, France, or Spain either but I'd have to check).

Is it dishonest? Did you see me claiming Sony are error-proof in anywhere in this thread? Sony has nothing to do with the discussion since we are talking solely about MS and the XBOXOne....or does it? This is my honets opinion Sony isnt error-proof either. They lost market share. They released too late at the wrong price with premature PSN services and functions. The result was that they gave up market share to MS and this is where MS managed to see that improvement [edit: Oh and they had a tremendous missed opportunity with the casuals which they offered to Nintendo in a silver plate] (one part of the story). At the same time despite its problematic launch and services it managed to improve significantly and reach MS's sales and in some territories surpass it (the other part of the story).

Now lets see your argument. Basically its like you are implying that the numbers you provide show that MS actually did great and captured the other markets.
Then what about Sony? Similar cumulative sales. Well, how do you expect someone to interpret the numbers then? If MS captured the global market with those sales then so did Sony, Right?
Or not? If Sony did not capture the consumer because its not up to PS2 level sales then they failed right? What if we consider that the PS2 was a record success that was hard to reach for a third time in a row? Thats excusable right?
Or not if we claim 360 did capture the market because it surpassed XBOX? What if we consider that the XBOX was a crappy performer business and market wise and hence easy to surpass? Sounds logical right?
Or not if we compare absolute sales between the too? Well....they appear to be on level to me..should that imply they are equally popular or equally bad performers?....Now what about taking into consideration the release date and price? Now the picture changes again doesnt it?
Now how about considering brand loyalty and awareness which the PS brand had more and yet the 360 managed to have similar cum sales? wooooooop......more loops of thought. And I can go on and on and on by simply recycling above points and interpretations

There are countless of ways to spin the numbers and information and I wont go into the lengths of that type of discussion. It leads nowhere

 

[SMOKE]

Are you arguing with me that 1) used games were alleged to cost full price (which was always wrong and logic failed the internet) or 2) are you now arguing that you can't just give your disc to a buddy to play for as long as he want?


because I've clearly answered 1)

2) is just the new way things need to be done to not have to have the disc in the tray... and yes hopefully our buddies can still play our disc but to ensure that we can not play it at the same time, we would have to deactivate it from our HDD.

We do not know yet HOW that will work. some are assuming that because of used game sales you will not be avle to do it your self but one of the interviews give=n also said there would be a simple tool in the dash so we can deactivate it ourselves.

Bottom line, you are getting all worked up over something that was 1) misunderstood, 2) is completely unclear and unannounced and as far as I can tell, still being decided and the only problem so far is that nobody should have said shit about it until they were ready to reveal the whole plan

What in the heck does this even mean?

Dont you mean deactivate it from your account/profile?

So, you're telling me my HDD will be online connected like my profile and its all 1?

And to the bolded...

They were ready, thus the answer he gave in clear detail, the reception of that did not bode well with gamers, PR gets involved and spins the crap out of it and now its all misunderstood and all is well now! I get it bro, we're almost a week away but let me explain my position...

I am a parent, gamer (PS3, 360, vita, 3ds, wii), and I work hard for my physical copy games I own. I dont buy my kids games brand new as they tend to get careless with their games and they all scratched the heck up and become unplayable.

I'm coming form the perspective of having entertainment for my kids and their friends whenever they come over with their game to play together. Only time their system is online is for updates, people are very rude and childish online and I dont want my kids repeating. getting rude images or comments from playing online. Games are $65 each, my kids dont have jobs and their chores help them out a bit along with presents such as gift cards or what not but they understand the value of a dollar and its wiser getting 2-3 games for the price of one to keep them entertained.

If there was in time on earth to be clear about something like this, that was the perfect time as they mentioned before. I'm just taking heed to what has been said so far, but for them to go months without addressing those rumors that pointed to this, I wouldnt feel the way I do now. If MS keeps with this or something like it (depends on how they spin it this time) It would be costly as my kids love to have what their friends are playing and it keeps them out of the streets and doing something constructive.

Thats where I stand and why I feel the way i do, im not trying to take anythign out of context but only trying to understand from my perspective on how this will work from the broad stroke Phil gave that day.

 

[dobwal]

Every product that is sold for a lot more than the average selling price of similar products is a product for an elite, yes.

I don't get the purpose of your retort. Selling a product catered to the rich may be construed by many as selling an elitist product. But selling products that accommodate certain realities of segments of society is not. I would not call a wifi modem an elitist product because it doesn't serve your typical consumers in regions or countries where internet connections are not affordable to your average person.

What's the point? What does this have to do with always-on requirements?

Im addressing another post that stated the xb1 was an elitist console because its supposed requirements didn't accommodate certain edge cases.

Those are services, not products. It's not hard to tell the difference.

What does it matter? You buy a console for the services it provides.

So the people with an unstable or periodically unavailable internet connection are an edge case?

That's funny. In a bad way.

Yep you are an edge case if your internet is so unstable you are regularly inconvenience by a once every 24 hour online check.

 

[SMOKE]

Well, reacting to comments from future users is not a bad thing at all. If they can change some things, it is fine for me.

Should of done it the moment the rumors were circulating the internet, why wait months later when people were hoping and praying for the rumors not to be true only for them to confirm them and then unconfirm them almost instantly. But I am hoping for change,

 

[dobwal]

Yes it can, but these comments of Phil's is what started all this in the first place correct? This was minutes after their highly anticipated reveal!

After the backlash from his comments, now we are at a state where "everything is up in the air" now and we'll get back to you later. Reminds me of that "How much is the PS3 gonna cost Crazy Ken", "You're gonna need 2 jobs", "its $599"!

Well something tells me its gonna be a while before MS decides on what to do regarding this policy, I dont think 2 weeks is enough time to go back to the drawing boards on this unless they just scrapped it period!

Two weeks is plenty of time. They only have to reveal their tweaked DRM philosphy not show that their system is functional.

Sony is in the same boat. They haven't fleshed out their system yet. There is no point in "we're listening" if your system is set in stone. DRM is a fluid situation for both consoles.

 

[bkilian]

Don't try to pass personal guesses as facts.
You can comment on that after Sony explains how it'll be with the PS4.

Besides, this isn't a comparison thread. If the PS4 blocks used games, it'll be just as bad.

Good point. It is only my opinion, but I stand by it. I can't see any way Sony will give MS the huge publisher advantage that this type of DRM would give them.

WTF, "most customers will never even notice" they can't freely sell their used games?!

This ruling on used games exists because the used games market has a HUGE volume, and developers+publishers worry more about that than piracy!

Quantic Dream stated they sold 2 million copies of Heavy Rain but there were 3 million personal entries in their achievement boards. This means that half of the people who purchased that game resold it later.

How far away from reality must one be to say "no one will never even notice"??

They won't notice because they _will_ be able to sell their used games. Microsoft has explicitly stated that.

The ability to trade in and resell games is important to gamers and to Xbox. Xbox One is designed to support the trade in and resale of games. Reports about our policies for trade in and resale are inaccurate and incomplete. We will disclose more information in the near future.

The last time? Last weekend. The next time will be tomorrow.
I have no internet plan in the house where I spend the weekends when the weather is good or where I spend a week of summer holidays.
Nor am I going to give myself the hassle of securing an internet connection there just to convince Microsoft that I'm not a pirate.

Again the "everyone who matters has internets 24/7" argument. I guess some people seem to be completely unable of considering lifestyles other than their own.

Sorry, but this console is then not designed for you. I asked this exact question when I was in the team, and the answer was "We're not making this console for them, we're making it for the over 80 million and counting households, in the US alone, and hundreds of millions more in the rest of the world, that have always on broadband connections. Just like xbox live in 2001 did not work without a broadband connection, this console, in 2013, will not work without a broadband connection". I'm paraphrasing slightly, executives tend to give 10 minute answers that are mostly empty, but I've captured the gist. And from the reveal and subsequent comments, they have not stepped back from that at all. They still insist broadband is required, although the console will tolerate dropouts in some cases.

It also will not work if you don't have a TV or receiver with HDMI. Nor will it work if you have no electricity.

Well excuse me if I'm not really comfortable with the idea of a box that needs to be constantly watching + listening to my living room all the time while being connected to the internet.

Well, don't buy one then. Although, for one thing, it's not watching all the time. The camera is off when the console is in standby. Only the mics are always active, and they really are _only_ listening for "xbox on" at that point, the system is in a special low-power mode that can't do much more than that.