Microsoft Xbox Reveal Event - May 21, 2013

[Nesh]

RE: point 1 - Sounding like a conspiracy theorist doesn't help your arguments. My points are about the INTENDED audience of the reveal and I used the past history of internet reaction to E3s to illustrate the fallicy of applying the wrong view point / analysis when commenting on the presentations. To put it in gamer terms, what we are seeing now and have seen in the past in reaction to these presentations is the equivalent of a FPS game reviewer who only likes and plays FPSes writing a review of a Planescape that essentially says "Where's the explosions, LULZ why so slow/serious, arrg wall of text, this game sucks. 2 /10"

I know what you tried to do. Hence why you were pointed to the fallacy of your own argument. Just by bringing the "conspiracy theorist" argument makes me wonder if you have even comprehended what I said.

RE: point 2 - You might want to reflect on the significant gains in market share in the EU by MS over the last gen before you toss out accusations of delusions. You might also want to think about average profit per consumer by geography. While no one has the data but the Sony and MS, I suspect that a US consumer is at least 3 times more profitable than an EU consumer, especially for MS. Live is the where the profit is. Everything else exists to create demand for Live.

Making assumptions to prove a point is not an argument. Selectively looking only at specific metrics (not that you have the numbers for those anyways) and ignoring others is good for marketing and PR and amateur work in terms of operating a business...and still not an argument.

I am still waiting from you to cover my previous raised points but you keep maneuvering them

I don't have dog in this fight or allegiance to a brand. I just want devices that fit my needs. I won't be getting a PS4 because it seems extremely pedistrian as a games machine due to launching just prior to numerous technological advances coming online; Sony probably lacks the capability to make the services-based device that would add value; and I don't find their exclusives appealling. XBone is similarily underpowered (although give the constraints of 1080P I don't expect to see any meanigful difference graphically even in first party efforts) as a games machine but does offer the possibility of a networked home entertainment device. I do really HOPE that the 360 mini can act as a client for at least the services and hopefully the games - of course if some fanboy fantasies come true and the mini provides a home-cloud for distributed computing of XB1 games then hallelujah! (in case you couldn't tell that is just wishful thinking by the way)

Sony? Your personal opinion about PS4? Fanboy fantasies? Wishful thinking? I have no idea what this has to do with the discussion we are having. I dont recall myself comparing PS4 and the XBone in our discussion, or making any reference to the subjects you cover here. And you also make hypothetical scenarios about the future? To make what point? It really makes someone wonder if you are just trolling. You may be using good wording to impress but your arguments have no substance

 

[DrJay24]

Well said ToTTenTranz, passion and clarity. I hope you get responses with substance and not just snark.

 

[SMOKE]

Just thought I'd point out that you can play used games on the Xbox One, and you can trade them in at retail like you can today, they've said it many times.

BKillian was referring to the supposed once a day DRM check that just is believed to be used to ensure any digital licences are kept in sync because of the ability to sell the games on...

I'd still not get too emotionally invested in the DRM until MS actually state what their exact policies are.. the absolute worst is that we can't sell privately, and it has to check once a day to ensure all licences are still valid.

Personally, I don't know why they can't use the normal disk check method for offline play, and only if you agree and connect once a day will you be allowed to play diskless..

But I'm sure MS will let everyone know within the next 2 weeks what the score is.

I'd like to point out to you that this was after the fact several top officials or known the internets stated that used games would have to be bought and paid for as if it were BRAND NEW. I dunno why people are selectively picking out parts of a whole to make their point as if know one was watching or been keeping up with the end results of the conference.

After about several months of rumors and a man getting fired for his opinion on sensitive info in an unprofessional manner about 'always online', all of a sudden MS is responding to things they have verified about their goals and targets for the X1 instead of doing this a long time ago when the reaction to the rumors were just as bad as they are today.

Imo, MS is gonna spin this crap and depend on the COD crowd and soccer moms across the land who only get the latest and greatest for their kids with little to no info at all besides it plays COD mom and all my friends are getting one.

Maybe im just a different type of person altogether, but please for the life of keeping it real, please "keep it real" when it comes to trying to prove a point and use ALL the info leading up to that as a whole, If you cant do that then you come off as a 'fanboy' and we would get nowhere like that.

 

[SMOKE]

You've missed one question..
If we have two XB1's in the house, one for me, one for my son, It would seem that we can't just share the game disks between the two consoles, although that use case was tenuously brought up in one interview and it sounded like that would work, but I'll believe it when we see their exact policies.

They answered it with a "NO", from what I heard when watching the conference and the after shows, you would have to have 2 live accounts as the game would only work on one console attached to that specific profile unless you pay to play the game under a different account.

They were very clear on that one, so it may be possible (or they're working on it) to use the same account on 2 different consoles if they share the same IP address (im assuming here)

 

[phil-t]

I'd like to point out to you that this was after the fact several top officials or known the internets stated that used games would have to be bought and paid for as if it were BRAND NEW. I dunno why people are selectively picking out parts of a whole to make their point as if know one was watching or been keeping up with the end results of the conference.

I must have missed that, I watched conference and all the aftermath, but only talks of a 'fee' of which the amount was not disclosed is payed for by the retailer..

Since the media is used *disk case and disk would not be sealed), like today, the retailer can't sell that physical item as new, so I suspect the second hand media will be cheaper then a new sealed item, as it is today..

I just don't follow your point I'm afraid.

 

[MrFox]

Fanboy fantasies?

*Zoolander's voice* : fanman... FANMAN !

 

[SMOKE]

I must have missed that, I watched conference and all the aftermath, but only talks of a 'fee' of which the amount was not disclosed is payed for by the retailer..

Since the media is used *disk case and disk would not be sealed), like today, the retailer can't sell that physical item as new, so I suspect the second hand media will be cheaper then a new sealed item, as it is today..

I just don't follow your point I'm afraid.

Im sorry, this was MS's wording at the conference, I will try to find that for you so you can have a better understanding...

Here u go...

According to statements made by Phil Harrison (both at Kotaku and Eurogamer) the age of used games isn’t quite over, but things will never be the same.

Basically if you want to lend a game to a friend they can either log into your account to play it for free, or pay for the game (probably at full retail price) if they want to play it on their Xbox Live account. This is because games are no longer really being sold, they’re being licensed. The physical disc is just a delivery system, and the “bits on the disc” are not as important as the code downloaded to your hard drive.

What Microsoft is doing here is both sensible and a bit ahead of its time. I say “sensible” in that they’re basically emulating the digital distribution model already in place on PC with a platform like Steam. If I own a Steam game I can play it on any computer, but if a friend wants to play it they’ll need to log into my account to do so.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/05/27/the-five-biggest-problems-with-the-xbox-one/

I hope you understand things better, and this comment by Phil is what sparked even more outrage and then all the spinning things back into their favor (which turned into another mess) began. But yes, its came out of this mans mouth moments after the conference.

 

[phil-t]

They answered it with a "NO", from what I heard when watching the conference and the after shows, you would have to have 2 live accounts as the game would only work on one console attached to that specific profile unless you pay to play the game under a different account.

I never heard any definitive statement on consoles in the same house, I saw this article

http://awildpodcastappears.com/2013/05/more-details-on-xbox-one-game-ownership/

Good new was at least given, as family and friends will still be able to play these second hand games as long as they use the linked account and/or original Xbox One the game was installed onto

I'm not putting too much hope on this, but if I can link our family accounts together (I already am linked to my childrens accounts as I have parental controls on) and it allows us to share games (obviously not playing at the same time), then I'll be able to work with that...

Im sorry, this was MS's wording at the conference, I will try to find that for you so you can have a better understanding...

There have been many contradicting 'clarifications' that don't all add up (Look on Neogaf for a complete run down).. All they keep saying is they haven't finalised all the policies yet, and will reveal all shortly, so with the minefield of clear confusion, I am waiting until they announce their policies..

As for you construing I am coming accross as a Fanboy, I am saying that there is clear confusion and contradiction, we know some stuff, we don't know it all, you should indeed keep it real, and wait until the exact policies are revealed, to get emotionally invested in the negativity right now is misguided.

 

[SMOKE]

There have been many contradicting 'clarifications' that don't all add up (Look on Neogaf for a complete run down).. All they keep saying is they haven't finalised all the policies yet, and will reveal all shortly, so with the minefield of clear confusion, I am waiting until they announce their policies..

This was their policy, the outcry from this is what sparked them to start the PR spin from this hours later. The internets went nuts after hearing this explanation, all kinds of sites were 'server error' and lagging from people all posting their thoughts and feelings at the sametime. Check the date and times this man spoke of this ';policy' and you can put together the sequence of events from their.


As for you construing I am coming accross as a Fanboy, I am saying that there is clear confusion and contradiction, we know some stuff, we don't know it all, you should indeed keep it real, and wait until the exact policies are revealed, to get emotionally invested in the negativity right now is misguided.

Well in a way you were, but for someone to be speaking as if they are very well informed but leaving out details that would contradict you point, you came across as one to me (my apologies). As far as exact policies, after Phil made that statement along with a few others that were made, MS doesnt have a policy at all right now because they screwed up bi time in the eyes of the hardcore gamers and are trying hard to make up ground for that.

So I edited my earlier post with a link and caption of what was said, you should read the link and hear it all for yourself. Things are much clearer when everything as a whole is put together the way it was spoken or typed!

 

[NavNucST3]

Sorry but you are deliberately selective with your arguments to satisfy your delusions. UK and the US are strategically important yes. But thats half the story again. They are because its the only territories where the 360 has done significantly better which at the same time alludes to its strategic weakness. Failure to capture the hearts of the consumer in the bigger scope. And as far as the questions I raised above you simply maneuvered away from them because you dont have the answers. You go by the constructed media half truths/incomplete information only

This is objectively intellectually dishonest. Can you point to any territory where the 360 has done worse than the XBOX? The 360 has sold-in ~78M units vs the XBOX ~24M. In which territories has the PS3 done better than the PS2? (I actually don't know this but it certainly isn't US, UK, Japan, and I don't believe Germany, France, or Spain either but I'd have to check).

 

[dobwal]

I dont post much but people are not asking the right questions regarding this DRM situation with the X1,

As a soccer mom or any parent purchasing the X1 and not knowing about these events that occurred prior to the launch of the device that gave out details of what the device is capable (im sure a GS employee or TRU would give great info) of, what do you suggest should happen in these scenarios...

1) Soccer mom goes out for Xmas and buys an X1, but doesnt allow her son online as much as most hardcore adult gamers do. What affect would that 24hr check in have on households like this?

2) Say for instance the GS employee doesnt give all the info needed when this device is purchased and soccer mom goes home with the X1 and some used games and realizes there is another fee associated with playing the game used?

3) Fees: For now we have XBL which we will say is $50 (for now), internet service $50 and possibly an activation of a used game fee $$$

But this also plays along to the unsuspecting gamer or consumer who is hell bent on getting an X1 because all their friends were on the 360 so things have to be better on the new machine.

Can you imagine the shock and awe of these situations if this info from MS and the way its been interpreted turn out to be true?

Mind you, I dont post much, I lurk and just gather what I feel when I read the info or hear it for myself like I did with both conferences. So can anyone here answer these questions from the perspectives I gave please, thx!

General consumers tend to be the most accommodating. If a soccer mom buys a online based console the most likely response, "Well I guess we have to connect it to the internet". Furthermore, the fact that GS and others don't sell mature games to minors but minors regularly end up with m-rated games tends to highlight how accommodating parents tend to be when not informed.

Don't used games that require additional fees for online currently have stickers on them that state this fact.

GameStop or any other retailer would be guilty of poor service not MS. It is gamestop that is directly servicing the used market, so its their responsibility to labeled their used products with disclaimer highlighting any additional fees. Retailers often get blamed in cases like these not the manufacturer.

 

[Cyan]

I agree with ToTTenTranz in a few points, especially the lifestyle thing.

For people who live in the same house all year long, are "virtually" connected to the internet all day long if they wanted to, yes, what Microsoft are doing with their DRM policies is no cause for concern.

But that's not the case for many many people and making an elitist console is not going to work in the long run.

For personal reasons -work- I had to travel far away from home and lived in a rented house for about 6 months, in the very south of Portugal, for instance.

The owners treated me really well, nice people. I didn't have an internet connection there, nor I wanted to contract one because it made no sense -besides that, it wasn't my house. :smile:

I spent most of the day at my job back then. But I was able to play my PC games -which I had religiously paid for- on my laptop at night without a problem.

Now, where I live, fried routers aren't uncommon 'cos of storms. My Internet ISP is reliable, and like ERP for instance -who lives in a region where the weather is not what I'd call temperate to say the least- I enjoy a pretty stable connection.

But when a router fries I have to wait a minimum of 24 hours to get a replacement, and up to a weekend depending on the ISP.

Also, it seems like Microsoft are battling the souls and minds of gamers who just want to carry the console with them to an alternative house in the mountains -or whatever- with no internet and so on.

Make the console more universal, not elitist. People are going to be grateful.

 

[Tap In]

I'd like to point out to you that this was after the fact several top officials or known the internets stated that used games would have to be bought and paid for as if it were BRAND NEW. .

come on.. that was a complete misrepresentation/MISunderstanding... they corrected it within 4 hours. You really think they reversed course on an entire billion dollar industry decision in 4 hours? Sorry that's ridiculous.

He was explaining that if YOU had your game on your HDD and I had your game on disc that for me to use your disc while you had the game activated on HDD, I WOULD have to pay to activate it as full price (or you deactivate yours) otherwise, essentially we would both be playing two full versions of the game and only paid for one.

Evidently that is far too many words for most people to stay on the LOGIC trail so of course the over reacting internet pounced without comprehnsion

I kept reading people say that "you have to pay full price for used game" and it's obvious it was bullshit

 

[Cyan]

Im sorry, this was MS's wording at the conference, I will try to find that for you so you can have a better understanding...

Here u go...

According to statements made by Phil Harrison (both at Kotaku and Eurogamer) the age of used games isn’t quite over, but things will never be the same.

Basically if you want to lend a game to a friend they can either log into your account to play it for free, or pay for the game (probably at full retail price) if they want to play it on their Xbox Live account. This is because games are no longer really being sold, they’re being licensed. The physical disc is just a delivery system, and the “bits on the disc” are not as important as the code downloaded to your hard drive.

What Microsoft is doing here is both sensible and a bit ahead of its time. I say “sensible” in that they’re basically emulating the digital distribution model already in place on PC with a platform like Steam. If I own a Steam game I can play it on any computer, but if a friend wants to play it they’ll need to log into my account to do so.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/05/27/the-five-biggest-problems-with-the-xbox-one/

I hope you understand things better, and this comment by Phil is what sparked even more outrage and then all the spinning things back into their favor (which turned into another mess) began. But yes, its came out of this mans mouth moments after the conference.

Larry Hryb -Major Nelson- has said they are looking into it, there is nothing permanent yet.

They are getting a lot of backlash and acting accordingly. Well, I hope so.

http://majornelson.com/2013/05/28/w...box-e3-2013-media-briefing/#comment-912068159

Comment: The entire world is watching Twitter explode.
The campaign for no DRM is in full swing.
Sony noticed and they're tweeting in response. I hope Microsoft does too

Major Nelson response: We're fully aware of what is going on. I am also working on a few things to address it. I can't say much more right now. But we ARE listening.

The used-games thingy doesn't only affect the 2nd hand market, but also some of the examples you mentioned in your posts, and digital downloads -which I am not against too, but I don't want digital games exclusively-.

Why I think people still love discs the classic way for 2nd hand market and other uses:

a) Many people like to have the game disc in order to let their friends borrow a game, or also easily bring the game to a friends' house without having to a lug their entire console.

b) Many people would rather buy games on disc 'cos they want to save hard drive space.

c) Many people like to have a game disc in order to be able to sell it back later.

d) Then there is the Collector's Editions...can you get that via PlayStation Network / XB Live?

e) Some have slow (mine is 6MB, which is not bad, but nothing to write home about) internet connections and don't feel like waiting an entire day or a few days for a 10-50GB game to download.

f) Amazon or Best Buy demolish the PSN and XBL in terms of holiday sales, daily deals, not to mention Black Friday AND gold deals.

Digital sales are rising, yes, but people also want their physical copies, and I don't see the digital market overtaking the physical sales.

 

[dobwal]

I agree with ToTTenTranz in a few points, especially the lifestyle thing.

For people who live in the same house all year long, are "virtually" connected to the internet all day long if they wanted to, yes, what Microsoft are doing with their DRM policies is no cause for concern.

But that's not the case for many many people and making an elitist console is not going to work in the long run.

For personal reasons -work- I had to travel far away from home and lived in a rented house for about 6 months, in the very south of Portugal, for instance.

The owners treated me really well, nice people. I didn't have an internet connection there, nor I wanted to contract one because it made no sense -besides that, it wasn't my house. :smile:

I spent most of the day at my job back then. But I was able to play my PC games -which I had religiously paid for- on my laptop at night without a problem.

Now, where I live, fried routers aren't uncommon 'cos of storms. My Internet ISP is reliable, and like ERP for instance -who lives in a region where the weather is not what I'd call temperate to say the least- I enjoy a pretty stable connection.

But when a router fries I have to wait a minimum of 24 hours to get a replacement, and up to a weekend depending on the ISP.

Also, it seems like Microsoft are battling the souls and minds of gamers who just want to carry the console with them to an alternative house in the mountains -or whatever- with no internet and so on.

Make the console more universal, not elitist. People are going to be grateful.

You could call Live a "elitist" service since it debut when the majority of even some of the most technological advanced nations were still on dial up connections.

You could call the PS3 an "elitist" console since it debut at launch prices well beyond the norm with a optical disc player meant for HDTVs while most technological advanced nations were still living in a SDTV based world.

Are Netflix's streaming or Pandora's "elitist" services because they don't accommodate offline use?

You know whats elitist? To think that a console manufacturer is somehow wrong because it chooses not to service your special needs. If you are an edge case where you need a console to operate regularly outside the norms of everyday gaming then there is a device for you, its called a PS4. If for some reason the PS4 is similar to the XB1 in requirements then you have a PS3 or XB360 to service your needs.

You really want a universal console? Then you need to start advocating for the cheapest offline gaming machine that can accommodate even the consumers of the poorest nations.

 

[SMOKE]

come on.. that was a complete misrepresentation/MISunderstanding... they corrected it within 4 hours. You really think they reversed course on an entire billion dollar industry decision in 4 hours? Sorry that's ridiculous. He was explaining that if YOU had your game on your HDD and I had your game on disc that for me to use your disc while you had the game on HDD, I WOULD have to pay to activate it as full price because essentially we would both be playing two full versions of the game.

Evidently that is far too many words for most people to stay on the LOGIC trail so of course the over reacting internet pounced without comprehnsion

I kept reading people say that and it's obvious it was bullshit mistake,

So you are telling me a high level rep for MS would get something like this absolutely wrong when he clearly answered the questioned in complete detail?

Im not grasping at straws here, its plain as day and the shit storm that hit the fan after he said that is what made things even more confusing. So please explain just how out of context was what he said and tell me exactly what you think he meant by it?

Also from the article about the PR spinning of what was said...

Harrison told Kotaku that while gamers wouldn’t need an online connection 24/7, they would need a connection from time to time to play even offline, single-player games. Harrison indicated that for non-online functions, users would still need to log in once a day.

Microsoft, which appears to be in a state of constant damage control lately, responded to their own vice president’s statements on used games and an online connection by calling them “potential scenarios.”

“While Phil [Harrison] discussed many potential scenarios around games on Xbox One, today we have only confirmed that we designed Xbox One to enable our customers to trade in and resell games at retail,” the company said.

They added that the specific details surrounding when users would need to log on to the internet remains up in the air. “There have been reports of a specific time period,” the company said, however “those were discussions of potential scenarios….”

I mean, what am I missing here man, this was planned years out in advance and thought through vigorously. This doesnt seem like a man that would just go into detail and elaborate on what their DRM would consist of only to turn around and say... "oh yeah, that was just one possible scenario"!

Well, what are the others then?

There are none because that was the plan and the shit hit the fan and it got out of control real fast. Not seeing your point though.

 

[Tap In]

yea this whole "Xbox is disrespecting us" vibe is playing in the shallow end of the pool.


don't get me started on "I'm going to tell everyone I know how bad xbox is" gig


I don't fancy the PS4 but I have not step foot with one post in any thread about PS4 because I will vote with my wallet, not by rambling rants of negativity

 

[Tap In]

So you are telling me a high level rep for MS would get something like this absolutely wrong

no... you missed my point. I said readers did not follow his LOGIC (and some still don't) and jumped to the wrong conclusions and over reacted as usual.

 

[SMOKE]

come on.. that was a complete misrepresentation/MISunderstanding... they corrected it within 4 hours. You really think they reversed course on an entire billion dollar industry decision in 4 hours? Sorry that's ridiculous. He was explaining that if YOU had your game on your HDD and I had your game on disc that for me to use your disc while you had the game on HDD, I WOULD have to pay to activate it as full price because essentially we would both be playing two full versions of the game.

Evidently that is far too many words for most people to stay on the LOGIC trail so of course the over reacting internet pounced without comprehnsion

I kept reading people say that and it's obvious it was bullshit mistake,

I am really trying to understand where u are coming from with this comment above about the HDD and activate and deactivate. That would make no sense what-so-ever as ALL the game are reportedly being installed to the HDD hence the swapping of games and app on the fly. So if I am wrong about this then please clarify!

So you are telling me a high level rep for MS would get something like this absolutely wrong when he clearly answered the questioned in complete detail?

Im not grasping at straws here, its plain as day and the shit storm that hit the fan after he said that is what made things even more confusing. So please explain just how out of context was what he said and tell me exactly what you think he meant by it?

Also from the article about the PR spinning of what was said...

Harrison told Kotaku that while gamers wouldn’t need an online connection 24/7, they would need a connection from time to time to play even offline, single-player games. Harrison indicated that for non-online functions, users would still need to log in once a day.

Microsoft, which appears to be in a state of constant damage control lately, responded to their own vice president’s statements on used games and an online connection by calling them “potential scenarios.”

“While Phil [Harrison] discussed many potential scenarios around games on Xbox One, today we have only confirmed that we designed Xbox One to enable our customers to trade in and resell games at retail,” the company said.

They added that the specific details surrounding when users would need to log on to the internet remains up in the air. “There have been reports of a specific time period,” the company said, however “those were discussions of potential scenarios….”

I mean, what am I missing here man, this was planned years out in advance and thought through vigorously. This doesnt seem like a man that would just go into detail and elaborate on what their DRM would consist of only to turn around and say... "oh yeah, that was just one possible scenario"!

Well, what are the others then?

There are none because that was the plan and the shit hit the fan and it got out of control real fast. Not seeing your point though.

 

[Tap In]

what is there to not understand about tbhis?

He was explaining that if YOU had your game on your HDD and I had your game on disc that for me to use your disc while you had the game activated on HDD, I WOULD have to pay to activate it as full price (or you deactivate yours) otherwise, essentially we would both be playing two full versions of the game and only paid for one.

They went on to clarify for the logically challenged that of course you could play your disc at his house if you are logged in GT as then you would not be able to play it off your HDD at home. Essentially making sure only ONE copy of game was active at one time.

this is what he was trying to explain to people when they did not follow his logic and jumped to the conclusion that you had to pay for every used game.

NO. You have to pay for every ITERATION that derived from EACH DISC. otherwise people would share installing the game from each disc onto many HDD's.