Microsoft Xbox Reveal Event - May 21, 2013

[MfA]

Steam doesn't ask you to do that because you cannot resell or give away a steam game.

Even if Steam allowed that on the PC it would be done through online deactivation.

Microsoft simply assumes it's customers are too stupid to deactivate a game before selling on the disks and don't want the extra support calls (assuming for a moment they allow general resale, presumably X days after first release).

 

[Laa-Yosh]

There's probably going to be a slim XB1 as well... eventually.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I think if you actually read the instructions of most equipment they generally say to leave ~10cm clearance around the sides and top of the units (especially if there are vents on the top).

Well mine only says this:

"Do not place anything on top of the cabinet
that might block the ventilation holes and
cause malfunctions."

It's a Sony AV receiver. I'd say I'm hardly the only one having other AV equipment on top of a receiver and having zero issues with that, as long as you don't cover the vents.

Bear in mind that these high end games are already costing pretty much in terms of production costs even on the current generation. With a hike in hardware capabilities for a new generation production costs are likely to take another hike.

Team sizes are already large, I don't think there is too much pressure to make them bigger. More familiar HW designs should also make things easier. Maybe the costs will go up, but I don't think the situation is even remotely comparable to the previous jump.

 

[bkilian]

I have a similar story to alot of xbox owners. I was a Sega console owner from the Saturn to Dreamcast before the decision by Sega to exit the hardware market. My jump was to xbox then and 360 after. I consider myself a 'hardcore gamer' and I am a graphics junkie. I expect the next gen of consoles to push the limits of hardware advances, like the consoles of old did. I dont care about tv, or fantasy football.
I am really gutted by MSs new xbox one. They have reduced the power of the box to allow them to include kinect up front. I dont want, nor have i ever used kinect. I do not want an always on microphone or camera on in my house. I dont want go have to check in online every 24 hours. I should be able to leave my console offline for months on end if I want. Then all the stupidness of the cant play used games without fee just rubs me up the wrong way badly.

Well, you're going to be disappointed, consoles being at the forefront of graphics is in the past now. PCs have a much higher TDP and power budget, so consoles will never again be able to compete on a graphical basis again, without completely changing the equation.

Also, it appears you are no longer the target audience MS is aiming at. All games on the Xbox One will use Kinect in some way. So if you don't want Kinect, you shouldn't buy one.

 

[Tap In]

Even if Steam allowed that on the PC it would be done through online deactivation.

Microsoft simply assumes it's customers are too stupid to deactivate a game before selling on the disks and don't want the extra support calls (assuming for a moment they allow general resale, presumably X days after first release).

They have already said you will be able to deactivate your own games in the system. If you can deactivate your license on your console, you can effectively let someone borrow your game disc.... deactivate it, let someone else activate it online when they insert the disc in their machine as it confirms there are no other users and there you have it.

(not that anything we are discussing about this is true until an official release)


It also appears to me that MS will allow you to trade in your digital games on demand purchases for some trade credit through their built in system. so they can give some extra value to DD purchases

 

[Cyan]

Aah, a traditionalist. Well, the Atari worked, why would anyone change it? the PS1 worked, why would anyone change it? the PS2 worked... you see where I'm going with this?
The current system of game sales "works", sure, but it is certainly not ideal for the game companies. Just like the video rental companies eventually made deals with the studios to cut them in on the profits, the used game market is going to have to cut the developers in on the profits in the resale market. They could have done it voluntarily and avoided technological measures, but they didn't, so now they won't have a choice.

As a customer, you probably won't notice anything different, you'll be able to trade your games and buy used games.

If they do what I hope they do, and put the onus on the person giving the disc instead of the person receiving the disc, it'll be even easier. You give the disc to a friend and while they have it, you cannot play your copy (unless you pay), get your disc back, and it'll reauthorize on your machine and disable their copy. This solves the problem of buying a disc on ebay and still having to pay, since you won't, it'll just work for anyone holding the disc. (They probably won't do this, because, again, it leaves the used market unchanged, and they really want a cut of the used market)

Also, everyone talks about just leaving your console offline and not updating your license, but that's pretty hard, and would only be a very small percentage of people. You just make it so that if it's been a certain amount of time (a few days, or 24 hours, or whatever) without any net connection whatsoever, you put the game back into "not-authorised" or demo mode unless the user inserts the game disc again. You can skip this check if the user has paid for the license online, since the only way they can transfer that is online, and it would immediately deauthorize their copy. (So for the digital download folks without discs, they can always play offline)

This solves all the legitimate use cases with almost zero impact on the user, except that they can now play without the disc in the drive if they have an (even crappy) net connection.

Yes, I think I am a traditionalist. I miss the good ol' methods, where you could lend or trade your games freely, DLC was not used as a rip off but they were expansions and so on and so forth...
　
Those were the days, for me.
　
What worried me the most was the always online rumour, which has been debunked ever since.
　
Other than that I can try to live with most of the changes -I hope the 24 hours thingy is a fake rumour though, it's an annoyance-, as long as the single player games are fully playable either online or offline -the cloud being optional and active when you are online-.
　
I think that Microsoft is trying to even the playing field and basically attract everyone to an average. I mean, they aren't pulling a Nintendo, neither Xbox is the Xbox anymore.
　
With Xbox One we are looking at a transition. Hardcore gaming seems to be stagnant, casual gamers are born everyday, and give or take in a few years Microsoft just seem to want to see a medium. Who knows... Casual, average or mainstream; hardcore will be hardcore.
　
Certainly there are more games about, more types of people playing games, therefore more core gamers in the making.
　
Is that good? Sure.
　
By the way, are you going to return to Microsoft someday? I don't know you personally, but darn, you seem to be a very honest and crystal-clear person -as you proved to those who fully trusted you-, it's something that I find admirable.

 

[Cyan]

The "core" gamer:
- wants games to be cheaper
- wants DLC to be free
- wants a minimum of 20 hours gameplay
- wants hardware pushed to the limit
- wants online services to be free
- doesn't understand why developers and publishers are going out of business

You have to understantd that traditional gamers have had our tastes catered for exclusively for a while now and we are so very used to that, and now there are way more non-traditional non core gamers out there who are more into the lifestyle games and stuff.

But at the same time you can't leave them as it is not at all clear whether a Nintendo-like business will ever work. They have been crucial to the industry but they became obsolete -it's nothing new, I bought the GC, then the Xbox and I missed being able to play DVDs and watch movies with friends and so on-.

Sony and MS showed, that core gamers are very important for their business model, they can make a machine enjoy great prestige and make your machine to be the talk of the town.

As the studios and publishers go where the money is and look at their business models and see that there is this huge pool of potential customers, we all know they are going to realign their output accordingly.

Btw, point 1 and 2 also apply to casuals, imho.

 

[Tap In]

The "core" gamer:
- wants games to be cheaper
- wants DLC to be free
- wants a minimum of 20 hours gameplay
- wants hardware pushed to the limit
- wants online services to be free
- doesn't understand why developers and publishers are going out of business

Exactly the sentiment I am getting too. I know I called them "cheap" before but maybe more apt would be clueless as to how the business world works and entitled.


Part of that problem could be that a large percentage of the core is or were recently teenagers.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Don't forget that there's always an influx of new 'traditional' gamers, as new people are born. Some traditional gamers have started 20 years ago, but others may be 2-5 years into the business only. And a lot of the traditional guys are leaving gaming altogether, or change focus as they get kids, and so on.

I also think you overestimate the number of core gamers in the X360/PS3 user base.

 

[Billy Idol]

Also, it appears you are no longer the target audience MS is aiming at. All games on the Xbox One will use Kinect in some way. So if you don't want Kinect, you shouldn't buy one.

Good to know.

 

[3dilettante]

The "core" gamer:
- wants games to be cheaper

Pretty much every buyer wants everything to be cheaper.

- wants DLC to be free

I remember when we had mods.

- wants a minimum of 20 hours gameplay

Ah, the good old days when games were really 20 minutes long, but with finite lives and coin-operated sensibilities we got 20 minutes and 30 hours of dying in that annoying infinite castle in Mario.

- wants online services to be free

In my day, we had our own servers, and our own LANs. *shakes cane at the sky*

- doesn't understand why developers and publishers are going out of business

Developers and publishers don't understand why they're going out of business. It's not the consumer's fault they can't handle their own arms race, or chose to offer products in a market based on novelty and fickle human preferences.
Beet farming has always been a safer alternative.

 

[function]

I'm not particularly bothered that Xbone isn't a powerful device, and I think new Kinect looks frikking awesome (infact I think it's the best piece of next gen gaming tech revealed by any company so far by far).

Thing is I won't be buying one as Xbone is now too far removed from the kind of games console that I enjoy owning, too limited in function compared to my PC, laptop or tablet (if I wanted one), and really, really expensive as a ~$500 platform that require full purchase price game rentals.

Seriously, I can play the same games on the PC that I own today - only with better graphics and higher frame rates - for something like $5 ~ $20 a pop. I still might not own the games but I don't require a special $500 console and $50 - $60 a game in order to not own them.

My friends with kids are now sworn off it too. Lending games to friends allows them to - for the same limited budget - play more games. The eradication of "lending games to your friends" will potentially make each game two or threes time more expensive to play. As one of my multiple-child encumbered friends stated: "Fuck that. Seriously. Fuck off."

I just don't get where Xbone fits into the market. I don't need it to TIVO what's on TV, or to watch streamed movies, or to use social networking, or to make phone calls, and all the same games will be better on the PS4 and better *and* cheaper on the PC.

If I want a device with draconian DRM that can do everything (but not particularly very well) I can get an iPad Mini and then at least I can watch Lord of the Rings on the bog when I'm having a shit. And probably "sports" too if I was interested in that kind of thing. What I don't need - in any capacity - is Xbone.

 

[Tap In]

love how we are jumping to conclusions without 1) knowing the actual plan for used games 2) not knowing what Sony will allow us to do if they have any desire to keep games installed on HDD without the need to have the disc in the slot.

It appeared in their reveal that they too are focusing on the multitasking/switching and app=like features including suspend game. It would be silly at that point to tie people to having to boot up a new disc at every game change like the old days

 

[Laa-Yosh]

This is probably why MS is investing 1 billion in exclusives... You certainly won't be playing those on your PC.

 

[joker454]

Please, just keep games the way they are. Ppl share, lend, resell and rent them, trying out and playing more games than they would if all were full priced. Gaming needs to spread, not curbed.

That's exactly what Microsoft is doing, by courting new audiences that would normally never buy a console means gaming gets spread much further and wider. You can't keep games the way they are as the current audience simply isn't large enough to sustain it. Risking millions on a small fickle gaming audience couldn't last forever, something had to give and it's in the process of giving.

Well, you're going to be disappointed, consoles being at the forefront of graphics is in the past now. PCs have a much higher TDP and power budget, so consoles will never again be able to compete on a graphical basis again, without completely changing the equation.

I'd echo this but far stronger this generation compared to last due to console designs being so much closer to pc. If you are a graphics junkie like me then don't waste your time on the consoles.

This is probably why MS is investing 1 billion in exclusives... You certainly won't be playing those on your PC.

That's true but there's far more exclusives on pc so if that's what someone is most interested in then they are better served there. Although traditionally on gaming forums, exclusives by Microsoft or on pc never count as games apparently.

http://gamingbolt.com/jonathan-blow-criticizes-microsofts-claim-of-increasing-servers-to-300k-calls-it-a-lie

Jonathan Blow is also angry at the lies MS is propagating regarding 'teh Clooud Power' !

I don't get why this guy is so mad. Given the types of games he makes he should be happy that Microsoft is going after new audiences as it means new people to buy the games he makes, people that normally would not even know his games exist. You'd think that expanding the gaming audience is a good thing to a game developer.

 

[MfA]

They have already said you will be able to deactivate your own games in the system.

My point is that if you require explicit online deactivation before reselling then the 24 hour online requirement is not necessary. The 24 hour online requirement makes it possible to allow resale without explicit deactivation, with Microsoft doing it automatically next time the xbox checks in.

It of course also adds an extra layer of security against piracy, but that's irrelevant here ... bkillian associated the 24 hour requirement with the ability to resell games, and the only way it's relevant is without explicit deactivation by the user.

 

[blakjedi]

I'm not particularly bothered that Xbone isn't a powerful device, and I think new Kinect looks frikking awesome (infact I think it's the best piece of next gen gaming tech revealed by any company so far by far).

Thing is I won't be buying one as Xbone is now too far removed from the kind of games console that I enjoy owning, too limited in function compared to my PC, laptop or tablet (if I wanted one), and really, really expensive as a ~$500 platform that require full purchase price game rentals.

Seriously, I can play the same games on the PC that I own today - only with better graphics and higher frame rates - for something like $5 ~ $20 a pop. I still might not own the games but I don't require a special $500 console and $50 - $60 a game in order to not own them.

My friends with kids are now sworn off it too. Lending games to friends allows them to - for the same limited budget - play more games. The eradication of "lending games to your friends" will potentially make each game two or threes time more expensive to play. As one of my multiple-child encumbered friends stated: "Fuck that. Seriously. Fuck off."

I just don't get where Xbone fits into the market. I don't need it to TIVO what's on TV, or to watch streamed movies, or to use social networking, or to make phone calls, and all the same games will be better on the PS4 and better *and* cheaper on the PC.

If I want a device with draconian DRM that can do everything (but not particularly very well) I can get an iPad Mini and then at least I can watch Lord of the Rings on the bog when I'm having a shit. And probably "sports" too if I was interested in that kind of thing. What I don't need - in any capacity - is Xbone.

We dont know everything about how it will work on either system. If Sony goes the same route as MS (which they probably will) then what? Your back to either succumbing to console policy or forever banished to PC which itself isnt a walk in the park.

 

[ERP]

If you required explicit deactivation, you'd then also require some way for retailers dealing in used games to be able to verify a disk's license had been deactivated so it could be resold.
You also run into the Ebay listings for used games where people don't bother issue.
I think it would turn into a shit storm of bad press.

 

[MfA]

If you required explicit deactivation, you'd then also require some way for retailers dealing in used games to be able to verify a disk's license had been deactivated so it could be resold.

You print the disc ID on the disc in human readable format, clerk types it in on a Microsoft website set up to check activation status ... rocket science.

 

[Tap In]

...My friends with kids are now sworn off it too. Lending games to friends allows them to - for the same limited budget - play more games. The eradication of "lending games to your friends" will potentially make each game two or threes time more expensive to play. As one of my multiple-child encumbered friends stated: "Fuck that. Seriously. Fuck off."
....

we do not know the details and the message has been confusing as the talking heads said different thing when they were not ready yet, fueling wild speculation and possibly misunderstanding

here is my take on your friend's situation above...

They have already said you will be able to deactivate your own games in the system. (Again we know nothing for sure yet) If you can deactivate your license on your console, you can effectively let someone borrow your game disc.... deactivate it, let someone else activate it online when they insert the disc in their machine as it confirms there are no other users and there you have it. I do not believe they wold design a punitive system, just a system that keeps more than one person "owning" the license at a time and playing one off HDD and one off disc.