Microsoft Xbox Reveal Event - May 21, 2013

[Gubbi]

Yes on multiple occasions. What does that mean, btw? (time of flight camera)

It means depths is calculated based on the time-of-flight from an infrared impulse is emitted until it hits something and is reflected back into the sensor.

The sensor is more complex, but it basically reads out raw depth values, so requires no (or only very modest) post processing, significantly lowering latency (and costs!!!) . It also has better fidelity in all dimensions.

Cheers

 

[Gubbi]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one

interesting article

this jumps out to me...

Microsoft appears to have invested a massive amount in accommodating live TV when the overall trend is moving towards time-shifted viewing and streaming media

I've mentioned it before. I think MS is hoping for cable companies to use XB1 as their set top box. All they need is a dumb digital decoder that plugs into the HDMI-in.

Cheers

 

[Esrever]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one

interesting article

this jumps out to me...

and this

how do they can remote calculate FLOPs without a clock?

 

[NavNucST3]

The intensive use of the XBL Marketplace or how it integrates the services with your TV was a given.

Sony have been transparent with hardware, Microsoft should be too -there must be advantages to their design-.

They should focus more on games at E3, and know that they said what they wanted to say about the new TV capabilities, they should push features that cater to hardcore gamers.

As others said, the E3 is a huge opportunity to redeem themselves.

Overall it seems rather clear to me that the initial negative outcry regarding the focus on the TV can only be fixed during the E3, with games.

MS say games are essential to them. Let's see.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/...s-still-absolutely-critical-to-microsoft.html

I guess for me there's nothing that needs redeeming. At no time was I ever under the impression that there would be no games for the device. I certainly can't wait to see new games but at no point did what was shown at the console reveal have me thinking that they weren't coming.

As an aside, I am so glad to not be in the industry anymore I don't miss this period at all, ok, that's not completely true but I don't miss the workload. I am saddened that Chicago's dev community has been effectively demolished

 

[MfA]

It means depths is calculated based on the time-of-flight from an infrared impulse is emitted until it hits something and is reflected back into the sensor.

Which probably isn't 100% true ... the tech from the Israeli company they bought used a super-fast "shutter" to cut off a pulse, using integration of the pulse to determine the distance ... has mostly the same advantages of Time of Flight though.

 

[AzBat]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one

interesting article

this jumps out to me...

I think they spent time on Live TV mainly because they haven't finalized all the business deals with all their providers yet. You can be sure if they had any app/IPTV horn tooting to be done they would have done it. They did hint that they are targeting the same kind of apps that they currently have on the 360. Just imagine the nightmare they have in trying to renegotiate 2 different platforms for the same apps.

Tommy McClain

 

[expletive]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one

interesting article

this jumps out to me...




and this

The author leaves out the critical point that the use of DDR3 RAM has as much to do with cost as it does with design. MS was not concerned about the motherboard layout when they built the XB1 they were concerned with the cost of using GDDR5. The gamble by the competition is not that they were able to get chips of that size without changing the design, the gamble is if the incremental cost of it over this generation is worthwhile.

Also, while the XB1 design may appear more complex, the use of a low latency cache is not an esoteric concept reserved for custom hardware. Haswell is also using something similar IIRC.

In addition, the gamble on TV hasn't cost Microsoft anything in terms of transistor budget. They were already committed to Kinect regardless of TV integration and the multitasking would still be there with services like Netflix and Hulu. So really the only uptick from a hardware perspective is the HDMI in.

 

[Gubbi]

Which probably isn't 100% true ... the tech from the Israeli company they bought used a super-fast "shutter" to cut off a pulse, using integration of the pulse to determine the distance ... has mostly the same advantages of Time of Flight though.

The shutter being triggered by the incoming reflected IR pulse, thus dependent on time-of-flight, no? That's how I understood the K2 diagram anyway.

Cheers

 

[Cranky]

I think they spent time on Live TV mainly because they haven't finalized all the business deals with all their providers yet. You can be sure if they had any app/IPTV horn tooting to be done they would have done it. They did hint that they are targeting the same kind of apps that they currently have on the 360. Just imagine the nightmare they have in trying to renegotiate 2 different platforms for the same apps.

Tommy McClain

I am not sure if the OUS-folks understand this or not, but IF MS DELIVERS on the media promise shown, then a reasonable assumption is that they could DOUBLE the number of subscribers in the US. The NFL partnership alone could bring in 10+ million new consumers that have never owned a console previously, to say nothing of how many consumers it will take from Sony. Moreover, these owners will be subscribers.

Everyone is up in arms over things that are total irrelevant in context of the presentation. Eurogamer has a great interview with phil Harrison that should put most of those issues to rest.

AT THIS POINT, MS has rendered Sony completely irrelevant in the non-gaming space for the US. For OUS and gaming the jury is still out. In EG article, PH does specifically mention EU and UK events where context appropriate content will be revealed, with a hint of something similar to the NFL deal with Premier League.

 

[MfA]

The shutter being triggered by the incoming reflected IR pulse, thus dependent on time-of-flight, no? That's how I understood the K2 diagram anyway.

As I said, that's not how the cameras from the Israeli company who's name I can't remember worked.

They had a global shutter which cut off the pulse ... if you have say a 10 ns pulse which ping/ponged for 5 ns and you close the "shutter" 10 ns after the start of the pulse then the sensor will see half the pulse (which can be determined through integration, with help of seperate results from measurement of a calibration pulse and background intensity).

They might not have used that particular technology though.

 

[Gradthrawn]

AT THIS POINT, MS has rendered Sony completely irrelevant in the non-gaming space for the US. For OUS and gaming the jury is still out.

So the jury is still out in regards to what MS has not shown (and simply talked about showing in the future), but the jury is adjourned on what SCE has not shown (and simply talked about showing in the future)? Not disagreeing with your overall point, but your conclusion is questionable, IMO.

 

[betan]

The shutter being triggered by the incoming reflected IR pulse, thus dependent on time-of-flight, no? That's how I understood the K2 diagram anyway.

Cheers

It has been long time I read anything about this but IIRC they used to do light accumulation, as in closer obstacles reflect light earlier meaning more photons, and higher intensity on CCD or equivalent before the shutter is closed. It's still called time of flight though.

ps: new Kinect demos look awesome, kudos to MS.

 

[fbomber]

the hardcore gamer is not being shunned here...

there will be gaming experiences revealed at E3 and going forward proving this. the reveal was aimed at a larger audience (Apple-esque) and the core gamer will be addressed at other conferences.


Th machine will play great games that look and play amazing with dedicated servers and Cloud assist with one of the best controllers in the business and an incredibly upgraded Kinect controller so gamers will be served.

I consider myself a hardcore gamer. Normally, I game 25 hours a week. I play on PC, PS3, XBOX360 and wii.

I have more than 500 games on steam, over 50 games for PS3 and 100 for xbox360. I bought the wii only for mario galaxy 1 and 2.

And I assure you: for now, I´m really disappointed the way MS drove the development of the Xbox One. I wasn´t impressed about the PS4 launch either, but sony´s financial position is not easy.

Where did I consider being shunned? The amount of money being thrown out in things like kinect and better TV watch support made the console a lot less powerful. If that money was spent as it always was (prior generations), we could have DDR5 and a much more powerful GPU, maybe tahiti level (XBOX/PS2 and xbox360/PS3 generations had GPU with almost equal performance of top end GPU at the time of launch). Now we´re supposed to accept mid end GPU with a crappy CPU (Jaguar may be great for the tasks it was developed for, with mobile in mind, but sucks if you compare with the CPU performance we had when PS2 and PS3/XBOX360 launched), and we know that the console should last for 6 to 8 years/minimum. With that specs, in 2 years gaming in general, specially PC games, will be held back, and core gamers are the ones that suffer.

 

[Cranky]

So the jury is still out in regards to what MS has not shown (and simply talked about showing in the future), but the jury is adjourned on what SCE has not shown (and simply talked about showing in the future)? Not disagreeing with your overall point, but your conclusion is questionable, IMO.

To be honest, Sony doesn't appear to have that capability in the box, the OS, or the cloud, which is why I made that statement. It seems fairly obvious that Xbox One was designed for those capabilities from the start, even to such an extent that MS was willing to trade off GPU power to accomplish its goals. I think it will be challenging, if not impossible, for Sony to match those non-gaming services in a meaningful time-period - say the next couple of years.

With regard to OUS and games, MS has specifically stated that they have events planned for those audiences. I don't recall anything similar for Sony and non-games.

 

[Esrever]

MS reserved 3GB of ram for a reason. Sony would have to match it if they want the same non gaming multitasking functions and that is not possible unless they design from the start because games will require exactly how much memory its designed for.

The winner of the consoles in terms of features will go to MS but sony will have more gaming resource. first party sony games will likely look better but mulitplat games will be likely very similar.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I consider myself a hardcore gamer. Normally, I game 25 hours a week. I play on PC, PS3, XBOX360 and wii.

I have more than 500 games on steam, over 50 games for PS3 and 100 for xbox360. I bought the wii only for mario galaxy 1 and 2.

And I assure you: for now, I´m really disappointed the way MS drove the development of the Xbox One. I wasn´t impressed about the PS4 launch either, but sony´s financial position is not easy.

Where did I consider being shunned? The amount of money being thrown out in things like kinect and better TV watch support made the console a lot less powerful. If that money was spent as it always was (prior generations), we could have DDR5 and a much more powerful GPU, maybe tahiti level (XBOX/PS2 and xbox360/PS3 generations had GPU with almost equal performance of top end GPU at the time of launch). Now we´re supposed to accept mid end GPU with a crappy CPU (Jaguar may be great for the tasks it was developed for, with mobile in mind, but sucks if you compare with the CPU performance we had when PS2 and PS3/XBOX360 launched), and we know that the console should last for 6 to 8 years/minimum. With that specs, in 2 years gaming in general, specially PC games, will be held back, and core gamers are the ones that suffer.

To counterpoint this, I would consider myself a casual gamer. I would vary between 2 and 8 hours of gaming per week depending on what I'm playing and the vast majority of that would be on PC. Console gaming would be a couple of hours per week max and almost exclusively on casual/social/kinect type games.

And I too found the reveal dissapointing.

Far from ignoring core gamers to go after casuals, MS seems to have ignored all gamers completely to go after some kind of hardcore live TV market. I'm not quite sure who these people are but I know for a fact they are none of the people I know who became first time console owners because of the Wii and Kinect move controls.

I don't know a single person that bought a console specifically for netflix and similar services as opposed to games. Although for a few blu-ray playback on the PS3 was a big factor.

Also if Microsofts system doesn't interface well with recorded TV and live pause etc... then I'd say it's dead in the water. Certainly to me anyway.

 

[Gradthrawn]

To be honest, Sony doesn't appear to have that capability in the box, the OS, or the cloud, which is why I made that statement. It seems fairly obvious that Xbox One was designed for those capabilities from the start, even to such an extent that MS was willing to trade off GPU power to accomplish its goals. I think it will be challenging, if not impossible, for Sony to match those non-gaming services in a meaningful time-period - say the next couple of years.

I would largely agree with that except for the cloud part. It would be foolhardy to dismiss their purchase of Gaikai and assume that its purpose, its infrastructure investment, is singularly focused on game streaming. In both cases were talking about largely future aspirations which leaves a lot of possibilities open. As for the OS, I agree. SCE thus far hasn't demonstrated the same software chops that MS has when it comes their platform OSes. Much the same with Live vs PSN, to be honest. But to outright dismiss Sony given what they've shown I think is premature.

With regard to OUS and games, MS has specifically stated that they have events planned for those audiences. I don't recall anything similar for Sony and non-games.

They have actually made such statements in pretty much the exact same manner as MS. In post reveal interviews when asked about what their media and non game plans were. I'm looking forward to it. We have two very divergent approaches on fully connected consoles with some real power to them. Very exciting, IMO.

 

[Tap In]

interesting comment from Anand

Arguably the most interesting thing in all of this is the dual-OS + hypervisor software setup behind the Xbox One. With the Windows kernel running alongside the Xbox OS, I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to one day bring the same setup to PCs. Well before the Xbox One hits the end of its life, mainstream PC APUs will likely be capable of delivering similar performance. Imagine a future Surface tablet that was capable of doing everything your Xbox One can do. That's really the trump card in all of this. The day Microsoft treats Xbox as a platform and not a console is the day that Apple and Google have a much more formidable competitor. Xbox One at least gets the software architecture in order, then we need PC/mobile hardware to follow suit and finally for Microsoft to come to this realization and actually make it happen. We already have the Windows kernel running on phones, tablets, PCs and the Xbox, now we just need the Xbox OS across all platforms as well.

 

[Kaotik]

Am I the only one bothered by everyone & every site doing hardware comparisons etc before we even know the complete specs, even if some engineer supposedly slipped the 768 ops number etc?

 

[wco81]

Hmm betting on live TV is a gamble. People are used to DVRs, skipping commercials, etc.

I'm going to predict they will find a way to integrate DVRs, if they haven't already.


Anyways, at E3, Ballmer will come out screaming "gamers, gamers, gamers!"