Microsoft Xbox Reveal Event - May 21, 2013

[James Car]

Actually I agree with this, I've seen the numbers from PS3 and the media app usage far exceed any game, I'd imagine the Xbox is much the same way.
Putting them behing Gold probably isn't much of an issue for most people.
I'll be looking at the mainstream press today to see how they react to the reveal.

Yes, but at the same time, this is a secondary action.

It's like saying the majority of people use a car for going to and from work. So lets design a car that does that very well (gets 10% better mileage), but gets half the gas mileage as soon as you leave the city.

Fine and dandy, but if there are other cars which can get 10% better in the city and everywhere else, why choose option 1?

The problem is that I don't think you can afford to alienate the core gamer in per-suing the broader market.

Exactly. I think Anand was spot on in his analysis that executives at MS went ultra conservative in thinking console production was a risk, and as a side effect of that decision, it seems they've made a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[dagamer]

You werent paying attention to what I wrote. You probably just read the top sentence only.

Excuse me but I have no idea what fanboyism has to do with anything. Of course I like the announcement of 15 games.
The problem with the whole conference was too much talk about TV for the TVphiles and almost nothing to keep the gamer (casual or hardcore) exited except "oh we ve got games"?...no shit sherlock. You are gonna have games....and I thought that thing was going to make Frappe and cook bacon. How about things that matter fot the gaming experience? But nnnoooooooo......lets talk about how you control internet and TV channels that many of us in EU wont care or have access to. What about the hardware? Noooooo lets throw generic numbers.....what about things this hardware can do to improve my gaming experience? Nnnoooooooo! Lets talk more about TV and CLOUD. Now tell me why I shouldnt be annoyed by it

Regardless of whether you were excited or disappointed, the console isn't launching for another 5.5 months. This isn't like a phone where you can pre-order a week after the announcement for delivery 3 days later (which really does depend on maximum hyper during a conference).

 

[Tap In]

did everyone see this yet today?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57585620-75/microsoft-talks-xbox-one-naming-privacy-and-more-q-a/

Let me clear that up unequivocally. Xbox One will support the reselling and used game market for Xbox One games. We have not announced details about exactly how it's going to work, or how licenses are going to be exchanged. That's all coming up later in the year. What we have announced is that a used game ecosystem will be supported, so people can breathe easy. They will be able to get used games.

Also the Wired report says that every game gets dedicated servers from LIVE (of the 300k)

so no more P2P

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/05/xbox-one/

 

[Tap In]

Exactly. I think Anand was spot on in his analysis that executives at MS went ultra conservative in thinking console production was a risk, and as a side effect of that decision, it seems they've made a self fulfilling prophecy.

the hardcore gamer is not being shunned here...

there will be gaming experiences revealed at E3 and going forward proving this. the reveal was aimed at a larger audience (Apple-esque) and the core gamer will be addressed at other conferences.


Th machine will play great games that look and play amazing with dedicated servers and Cloud assist with one of the best controllers in the business and an incredibly upgraded Kinect controller so gamers will be served.

 

[wco81]

If XBO games differentiate themselves from PS4 games by always support more players and providing superior online performance despite having more players per game because of this server infrastructure, then that will be a huge chit for XBO.

But XBL has always kind of promised better online gaming yet they've been using P2P for 10 years now. Lets see if that really changes.

 

[Cyan]

Actually I agree with this, I've seen the numbers from PS3 and the media app usage far exceed any game, I'd imagine the Xbox is much the same way.
Putting them behing Gold probably isn't much of an issue for most people.
I'll be looking at the mainstream press today to see how they react to the reveal.
The problem is that I don't think you can afford to alienate the core gamer in per-suing the broader market.
MS still has E3 to play to that market though.

I think the problem is not the boring conference or mostly mentioning the TV features.

Many people are disappointed. Keep things simple Microsoft.

People find annoying things like -not fully confirmed- having to connect to the internet once a day at least and so on.

There is a lot of negative feedback, tons of negative news, etc etc. This happened in 2005 when Xbox 360 came out and the wallguy thing, but it looks slightly worse this time.

People are tired of the virtual world, smart this and smart that, rip offs, DLCs, etc etc.

Sure, I prefer an all-in-one console, but you don't need to focus the presentation on that.

It's not all bad though. They showed the machine, I liked it, it's elegant, plus they said the name.

 

[James Car]

the hardcore gamer is not being shunned here...

there will be gaming experiences revealed at E3 and going forward proving this. the reveal was aimed at a larger audience (Apple-esque) and the core gamer will be addressed at other conferences.


Th machine will play great games that look and play amazing with dedicated servers and Cloud assist with one of the best controllers in the business and an incredibly upgraded Kinect controller so gamers will be served.

I'm quite sure you are correct, however the design intention was not at the core gamer. Whatever actions MS takes from this point forth can attempt to alleviate this (IMO) mistake, but they will have zero affect on the fact that the hardware design is not gamer centric.

This conference just served to further illustrate that point and hammer it home.

 

[James Car]

...It's not all bad though. They showed the machine, I liked it, it's elegant, plus they said the name.

The great irony of the box design...

I liked it as well. I thought this would be a smart design direction for this gen. Go with something a bit more "grown up" and suitable for an av rack.

This does two things:
1) marketing appeal for a classy look
2) more importantly, the larger case opens the door for a higher TDP.

When they announced 5B transistors, I thought for a second that perhaps all the rumors were wrong. The box is huge and with that number of transistors, they can pack a tahiti in it.

Instead we get a 100w apu.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think the problem is not the boring conference or mostly mentioning the TV features.

Many people are disappointed. Keep things simple Microsoft.

People find annoying things like -not fully confirmed- having to connect to the internet once a day at least and so on.

There is a lot of negative feedback, tons of negative news, etc etc. This happened in 2005 when Xbox 360 came out and the wallguy thing, but it looks slightly worse this time.

People are tired of the virtual world, smart this and smart that, rip offs, DLCs, etc etc.

Sure, I prefer an all-in-one console, but you don't need to focus the presentation on that.

It's not all bad though. They showed the machine, I liked it, it's elegant, plus they said the name.

Is it not a simple design? Is the UI complicated?

Are people really tired of virtual world, "smart" products and DLC? I'll agree that most people are tired of being ripped off, unless you mean rip offs as in copies, in which case what are you referring to?

 

[Cyan]

Am I casual or core?

I spend more time in XBOX Live Video Marketplace and Netflix/Amazon than hours spent gaming.
and with that said

I probably spend more on games in a year than some have spent this entire generation.

The intensive use of the XBL Marketplace or how it integrates the services with your TV was a given.

Sony have been transparent with hardware, Microsoft should be too -there must be advantages to their design-.

They should focus more on games at E3, and know that they said what they wanted to say about the new TV capabilities, they should push features that cater to hardcore gamers.

As others said, the E3 is a huge opportunity to redeem themselves.

Overall it seems rather clear to me that the initial negative outcry regarding the focus on the TV can only be fixed during the E3, with games.

MS say games are essential to them. Let's see.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/...s-still-absolutely-critical-to-microsoft.html

 

[Cyan]

Is it not a simple design? Is the UI complicated?

Are people really tired of virtual world, "smart" products and DLC? I'll agree that most people are tired of being ripped off, unless you mean rip offs as in copies, in which case what are you referring to?

It's not the design itself that it's not simple. It's the fact that they want to make it an entertainment centre but sometimes one just wants to play games, without having to check if internet is on -I have internet, no problem, but I live in an area with a similar climate to the Pacific Northwest (USA) weather-. Fried routers are not uncommon here.

People who go on vacation or to their house in the beach and want to bring the Xbox One, shouldn't need to use their mobile phone as a router to set up a connection.

As for the virtual world thing, the console makers have been charging extra money to get some basic game upgrades or unlocked bonuses. In some cases they also lost that (required to play in the machine) credit information to hackers on various occasions.

In regards to rip offs I mean that it feels like the console is meant to control whatever you do -whether you re-sell your games and stuff-, and exploit some opportunities to charge people for extra cash.

Additionally, I don't know of anyone who bought the Xbox 360 (best console I've ever had) for its ability to watch Netflix.

 

[MfA]

Casuals have no brand loyalty ... except to Apple ...

 

[AzBat]

wish we had a "Like" button here... well said

oh and I switch between TV, games and the web every day all day so to me they were targeting my usage except for the app integration and interactive stuff... I will need to see it in action to see if it is worth what they gave up for it in the reveal.

some of those things would have been better off as an afterthought to more games but I feel like they were trying to reveal an Apple TV competitor more than a PS4 competitor

I'm pretty much in agreement with this. I think our usage is very similar. So I think they're targeting me too.

Actually I agree with this, I've seen the numbers from PS3 and the media app usage far exceed any game, I'd imagine the Xbox is much the same way.
Putting them behing Gold probably isn't much of an issue for most people.
I'll be looking at the mainstream press today to see how they react to the reveal.
The problem is that I don't think you can afford to alienate the core gamer in per-suing the broader market.
MS still has E3 to play to that market though.

I don't think you can alienate the core gamer. And Microsoft seems to understand that too if it's true they dropped the AO requirement because of the public backlash. Maybe the reveal was another wake up call of the wrath of the core gamer? LOL

They're not going after one or the other, seems both, as well as movies and all other kind of media.

More power to them if they pull it off.

Yeah I'm scratching my head about people paying for XBL Gold in order to view Netflix, when there are so many other options. I would hope that the people who watch Netflix through XBL Gold use the gaming features, or at least planned to. Otherwise, it's a waste of money when there are so many other ways to get Netflix on the big screen without paying to access it.

Maybe they hit the jackpot again with Kinect 2. Stranger things have happened.

You're right it is both. The TV/app side seems spot on, but the gaming side is an unknown. I think they understand, but can they convince the core at E3?

BTW, essentially I'm paying for Gold without a lot of multiplayer gaming at the moment. There are times when I get the bug & will play some, but it's not my main activity. I'm looking forward to more engaging single player campaigns using living breathing open worlds. Loved Red Dead because of the open world/sandbox. Would love to see how they improve that with the cloud.

Just because it is convenient to use the box which is already connected for those features does not mean that the original purchase was for those functions.

As for a decline in game purchases indicating a new breed of xb owner that only likes to watch movies on xbox, I think that use trend has more to do with the fact that the gaming experience has grown stale. The hardware was in desperate need of an update (8 years!) to enable new experiences and excite the userbase. The hardware they showed at this event does little to inspire this crowd. and the ones that have an xbox that is sitting under the telly for watching netflix I doubt will be excited at the prospect of ponying up $500 for the privilege to do the same thing but with mandated DRM checkups and potential marketing research on a daily basis.

I can see the long generation having an effect, but I don't think that's the only reason. I think the global economy also has a lot to do with it. I think in my area more people are buying used games just because they can't afford to buy new games all the time. With that said, after the sell out of the initial run of launch consoles, it will be interesting to see if the economy is still affecting hardware & software sales or if it revitalizes the market.

Tommy McClain

 

[Gitaroo]

Casuals have no brand loyalty ... except to Apple ...

casual goes to whatver brand that is popular, today Apple, tomorrow can be anything. Got a couple of casual in the house that seems to be the case.

 

[expletive]

It's not the design itself that it's not simple. It's the fact that they want to make it an entertainment centre but sometimes one just wants to play games, without having to check if internet is on -I have internet, no problem, but I live in an area with a similar climate to the Pacific Northwest (USA) weather-. Fried routers are not uncommon here.

That may be true but surely MS can't build a business strategy around "routers fry in the PNW"

I do agree though, that the message is somewhat complex because they need to convince people that they need an 'all in one' box -AND- that this should be it.

What's somewhat ironic to me is that if they had just a bit more compute transistors in the budget, would we even be having this conversation? How many transistors would another 2-4 CUs have been?

 

[ERP]

I live in an area with a similar climate to the Pacific Northwest (USA) weather-. Fried routers are not uncommon here.

Really I live in the PNW, and I have yet to fry a router.
I'm hypersensitive to how often my net connection is up or down because I work from home and I'm dependent on it.
I live in an unincorporated area so I get shitty service compared to people living in major cities, I can't get a decent cable connection so I use DSL, and I have had exactly 1 case of losing my internet connection for more than 12Hrs in the last 5 years. And I don't think you'd find too many people saying positive things about my internet provider.

 

[MfA]

Does Microsoft ever actually say it's a time of flight camera? (Are those deconstructed + text images originally from Microsoft?)

 

[expletive]

Does Microsoft ever actually say it's a time of flight camera?

Yes on multiple occasions. What does that mean, btw? (time of flight camera)

 

[AzBat]

Does Microsoft ever actually say it's a time of flight camera?

Yes, multiple times.

Tommy McClain

 

[Tap In]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one

interesting article

this jumps out to me...

More than that, the system appears to have been designed with a very specific US focus, where cable TV boxes are the norm. What about TVs with built-in decoders, either terrestrial and satellite in nature? Not everyone wants subscription TV, so not everyone has a set-top box - but they're still enjoying a large range of digital channels and a decent amount of HD programming. Perhaps more pertinently, Microsoft appears to have invested a massive amount in accommodating live TV when the overall trend is moving towards time-shifted viewing and streaming media - something it almost completely ignored in its presentation. It's a very curious decision and a massive gamble.

and this

In terms of the GPU hardware, hard information was difficult to come by, but one of the engineers did let slip with a significant stat - 768 operations per clock. We know that both Xbox One and PlayStation 4 are based on Radeon GCN architecture and we also know that each compute unit is capable of 64 operations per clock. So, again through a process of extrapolation from the drip-feed of hard facts, the make-up of the One's GPU is confirmed - 12 compute units each capable of 64 ops/clock gives us the 768 total revealed by Microsoft and thus, by extension, the 1.2 teraflop graphics core. So that's another tick on the Durango leaked spec that has been transposed across to the final Xbox One architecture and the proof we need that PlayStation 4's 18 CU graphics core has 50 per cent more raw power than the GPU in the new Microsoft console. Now, bearing in mind that we fully expect PlayStation 4 and Xbox One to launch at similar price-points, how did this disparity come about? Now, bearing in mind that we fully expect PlayStation 4 and Xbox One to launch at similar price-points, how did this disparity come about?

The answer to that comes down to a specific gamble Sony made that Microsoft could not - the utilisation of a unified pool of GDDR5 memory. In the early days of PS4 development, only 2GB of this type of memory looked viable for a consumer-level device. As higher density modules became available, this was duly upgraded to 4GB. By the time of the reveal back in February, Sony had confidence that it could secure volume of 512MB modules and surprised everyone (even developers) by announcing that PS4 would ship with 8GB of unified GDDR5 RAM. The design of its surrounding architecture would not need to change throughout this process - one set of 16 GDDR5 chips would simply be swapped out for another.

Microsoft never had the luxury of this moving target. With multimedia such a core focus for its hardware, it set out to support 8GB of RAM from day one (at the time giving it a huge advantage over the early PS4 target RAM spec) and with serious volume of next-gen DDR4 unattainable in the time window, it zeroed in on supporting DDR3 and doing whatever was necessary to make that work on a console. The result is a complex architecture - 32MB of ESRAM is added to the processor die, along with "data move engines" to courier information around the system as quickly as possible with bespoke encode/decode hardware to alleviate common bottlenecks. Bottom line: if you're wondering why Xbox One has a weaker GPU than PlayStation 4, it's because both platform holders have similar silicon budgets for the main processor - Sony has used the die-space for additional compute units and ROPs (32 vs. 16 in One), while Microsoft has budgeted for ESRAM and data move engines instead. From the Xbox perspective, it's just unfortunate for Microsoft that Sony's gamble paid off - right up until the wire, it was confident of shipping with twice the amount of RAM as PlayStation 4.