Influences of Favorite Console Religion on Game Perception (containment thread)

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bunge said:
So the response to people who are somewhat ignorant to the exact technical specifications is to be a condescending ass. How about speak in a more encouraging tone that encourages dialog and increases learning instead?

"That feature does look great. It was also used in game X. [insert photo]"
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I'm condescending on people calling me names and/or not giving any thing of relevance to the topic other than just saying "it looks better" for obvious reasons. Yea, that should be challenged. Also many people get defensive when comparing UC to other games. Their immediate response is a part of the examples I gave in the above post. This naturally turns into a dick-swinging contest.
 
You've stated that low level api programming and optimization is not a thing on numerous times and even stated that Ps4 and X1 would be running Dx11 level apis (which was never the case, with Ps4 running on GNM/GNMX and even the launch X1 SDK wasn't exactly using Dx11). And i see you downplaying the importance and benefits of coding for a single platform or h/w while praising Nvidia rendering techniques which are clearly a result of coding and optimizing for a single architecture, h/w. Correct me if i'm wrong of course, but i see clear bias and inconsistent opinions in your posts; nobody is a saint, we all have bias in one way or another, sometimes it's just too much though.
 
chris1515 said:
Rise of the Tomb Raider is not on the same league...
Click to expand...

Can you give an objective example why you think so? I've been playing RoTR this week on the PC with everything set to Ultra and see a number of features when coupled together, would not be possible on consoles. I also see one very important key ingredient, that I personally wish was the basis for creating highly detailed scenes in games -- tessellation. This feature is still sort of ignored in most games and yet, having great looking non-rectangular continuous smooth edges controlled with detailed texture maps really "wakes" up a games detail. RoTR uses tessellation liberally throughout the game making vistas and environments look stunning!
 
Clukos said:
You've stated that low level api programming and optimization is not a thing on numerous times and even stated that Ps4 and X1 would be running Dx11 level apis (which was never the case, with Ps4 running on GNM/GNMX and even the launch X1 SDK wasn't exactly using Dx11). And i see you downplaying the importance and benefits of coding for a single platform or h/w while praising Nvidia rendering techniques which are clearly a result of coding and optimizing for a single architecture, h/w. Correct me if i'm wrong of course, but i see clear bias and inconsistent opinions in your posts; nobody is a saint, we all have bias in one way or another, sometimes it's just too much though.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the comments.

I think there was a miscommunication on my part about the low level api programming and optimization for platforms. Speaking from dabbling into UE4 and Unity (which are very popular gaming engines), I would imagine a developer could easily make a game using these engines without coding to the metal. Both have cross-platform portable code. I've done a little programming in the API in Unity and I've interviewed with a lot of gaming companies where the emphasis was based on an individual knowing DirectX/OpenGL (assembly was usually a bonus). I've heard and talked to several developers of games and I get the impression that the majority of them are consistently working at the API level when making shaders, using 3rd party software for physics/FX, and/or making use of said game engine's own API for lighting/rendering. I'd be surprised to see all console exclusives written in a low level language (i.e. Assembly). The way I understand it is that the graphics engine may be making low level-ish calls to the drivers or using an API that already does this while only changing a few functions they deem too slow. I guess it would depend on a lot of factors, but in practice we don't see games on the market now being significantly faster or using significantly more advanced features when compared to their competition. This should give "outsiders" clues as to how much this "low level" programming is effective IMO.
 
VFX_Veteran said:
Can you give an objective example why you think so? I've been playing RoTR this week on the PC with everything set to Ultra and see a number of features when coupled together, would not be possible on consoles. I also see one very important key ingredient, that I personally wish was the basis for creating highly detailed scenes in games -- tessellation. This feature is still sort of ignored in most games and yet, having great looking non-rectangular continuous smooth edges controlled with detailed texture maps really "wakes" up a games detail. RoTR uses tessellation liberally throughout the game making vistas and environments look stunning!
Click to expand...

Environment lighting is one major problem with the game, most of the time open areas just look bland (maybe that was the artistic approach)
riseofthetombraider0478yrg.png


And as you've probably noticed in that picture geometry tessellation is not used for rocks or walls or objects within the game except for terrain (as seen in the nvidia comparisons), some examples
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider046obnv.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider043rlqf.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider04euxr8.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider04f5l38.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider04jpbks.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider04wtlba.png

Material shading is also inconsistent, sometimes producing very strange results (as in the DF article). RotTR is definitely a great looking game overall but it's very inconsistent to be considered truly great in my opinion. Battlefront, The Order, Ryse and even Batman AK all manage to deliver stunning visuals at a more consistent pace.

VFX_Veteran said:
Thanks for the comments.

I think there was a miscommunication on my part about the low level api programming and optimization for platforms. Speaking from dabbling into UE4 and Unity (which are very popular gaming engines), I would imagine a developer could easily make a game using these engines without coding to the metal. Both have cross-platform portable code. I've done a little programming in the API in Unity and I've interviewed with a lot of gaming companies where the emphasis was based on an individual knowing DirectX/OpenGL (assembly was usually a bonus). I've heard and talked to several developers of games and I get the impression that the majority of them are consistently working at the API level when making shaders, using 3rd party software for physics/FX, and/or making use of said game engine's own API for lighting/rendering. I'd be surprised to see all console exclusives written in a low level language (i.e. Assembly). The way I understand it is that the graphics engine may be making low level-ish calls to the drivers or using an API that already does this while only changing a few functions they deem too slow. I guess it would depend on a lot of factors, but in practice we don't see games on the market now being significantly faster or using significantly more advanced features when compared to their competition. This should give "outsiders" clues as to how much this "low level" programming is effective IMO.
Click to expand...

Give this a read when you have time (an example of an engine optimized for Ps3 ported over to Ps4 and how it couldn't actually work efficiently, even if the PS4 is clearly the best performer of the two overall): http://www.benicourt.com/blender/wp...izing_the_naughty_dog_engine_using_fibers.pdf

It's less about specific programming techniques and more about building custom engines for specific platforms and specific games (like Remedy have done for Quantum Break for example).
 
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VFX_Veteran said:
Can you give an objective example why you think so? I've been playing RoTR this week on the PC with everything set to Ultra and see a number of features when coupled together, would not be possible on consoles. I also see one very important key ingredient, that I personally wish was the basis for creating highly detailed scenes in games -- tessellation. This feature is still sort of ignored in most games and yet, having great looking non-rectangular continuous smooth edges controlled with detailed texture maps really "wakes" up a games detail. RoTR uses tessellation liberally throughout the game making vistas and environments look stunning!
Click to expand...

I don't compare with PC version but with console version.

Tesselation is not a good use of ressource of rasterization on current GPU(good for terrain rendering or LOD) but not for adding more polygons. Too manys micropolygon is equal to inefficiency of the GPU. On PC you have additional power you can use without thinking of efficiency...

If you want efficiency and dense geometry you need to change of method of rendering. Dreams SIGGRAPH presentation contains the word "dense geometry".
 
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Clukos said:
Environment lighting is one major problem with the game, most of the time open areas just look bland (maybe that was the artistic approach)
riseofthetombraider0478yrg.png


And as you've probably noticed in that picture geometry tessellation is not used for rocks or walls or objects within the game except for terrain (as seen in the nvidia comparisons), some examples
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider046obnv.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider043rlqf.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider04euxr8.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider04f5l38.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider04jpbks.png
http://abload.de/img/riseofthetombraider04wtlba.png

Material shading is also inconsistent, sometimes producing very strange results (as in the DF article). RotTR is definitely a great looking game overall but it's very inconsistent to be considered truly great in my opinion. Battlefront, The Order, Ryse and even Batman AK all manage to deliver stunning visuals at a more consistent pace.



Give this a read when you have time (an example of an engine optimized for Ps3 ported over to Ps4 and how it couldn't actually work efficiently, even if the PS4 is clearly the best performer of the two overall): http://www.benicourt.com/blender/wp...izing_the_naughty_dog_engine_using_fibers.pdf

It's less about specific programming techniques and more about building custom engines for specific platforms and specific games (like Remedy have done for Quantum Break for example).
Click to expand...

They probably change for UC4 and ND use assembly when it is needed or shader assembly.

Insomniac did not use AVX for Sunset Overdrive because it is not available on all PC last year presentation. Sunset Overdrive on PC one day?

The GDC 2016 presentation is talking about what they have done for Ratchet and Clank and they optimized further for Jaguar and it is a good things it is useful on PS4 and Xbox One...
 
chris1515 said:
I don't say they do not use fiber anymore but they probably begin to do more optimization for the Jaguar code. In the fiber presentation presentation they didn't pay attention to verify the code is cache friendly for example for The Last of US Remastered...
Click to expand...

Ah yes, well that presentation is over one year old already. Optimization in game engines is an ongoing process and it makes sense that right now the engine is probably better than it was back then (Epic do that too with Unreal, same with Unity, Frostbite etc.).
 
L. Scofield said:
Main characters are quite comparable fidelity wise. Same regarding the dynamic sky, volumetric lighting and GI. Vegetation wise though, AC4's 3d vegetation > Horizon's sprites.

Contrary to ultragpu's assessment, Horizon doesn't support the argument regarding the open world capabilities of the U4 engine.
Click to expand...

I didn't wante to answer in UC4 thread. Not everything is 3d foliage in the scenery we saw in the E3 2015 demo but they have a jungle into the game for example we can compare at this moment. ;)

From what I have seen into the AC Syndicate timelapse* all clouds look like nearly the same. Cloud's doesn't have many different shape and different properties like in real life for example or in Drive Club and Horizon. Read the SIGGRAPH Guerrila presentation of en ex offline rendering guy with video of the volumetric cloud system. Another things the volumetric cloud looks a little flat in AC Syndicate time lapse, it is not the case on Drive Club Tru Sky middleware** implementation and Horizon Zero Dawn.

* If you have other video showing more variety of clouds with more volume too I can agree with you... I never see the game out of some video and it was the first timelapse I have seen.

** Available on PC and Xbox One too and it will be used in the next ACE Combat...
 
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upnorthsox said:
Banned?
Click to expand...

Yes banned. Just look through the user list and notice a substantial number of them that are no longer around.

Granted, the largest percentage of fanboys that remain that are not banned (yet) are the PC Master Racers.
 
BRiT said:
Yes banned. Just look through the user list and notice a substantial number of them that are no longer around.

Granted, the largest percentage of fanboys that remain that are not banned (yet) are the PC Master Racers.
Click to expand...

And Sony fanboy but I only have a PS4 this gen but I don't find pleasure to tell than Quantum Break, Ryse or Sunset Overdrive are not great looking titles like Star Citizen for PC...

And I don't say multiplatform are incompetent and Naughty Dog or Guerrilla are the best of the world.

DICE engine or UE4 are piece of art used in different games with very different constraints and the result is great for example...
 
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chris1515 said:
I don't compare with PC version but with console version.

Tesselation is not a good use of ressource of rasterization on current GPU(good for terrain rendering or LOD) but not for adding more polygons. Too manys micropolygon is equal to inefficiency of the GPU. On PC you have additional power you can use without thinking of efficiency...

If you want efficiency and dense geometry you need to change of method of rendering. Dreams SIGGRAPH presentation contains the word "dense geometry".
Click to expand...

Strongly disagree. Moore's law will allow it at some point -- even with rasterization hardware.
 
VFX_Veteran said:
Strongly disagree. Moore's law will allow it at some point -- even with rasterization hardware.
Click to expand...

Sub pixel polygon kills current GPU efficiency. Do a demo and use only micro polygons with simple pixel shader at 1080p, it will probably go faster at 1440p...
 
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