Influences of Favorite Console Religion on Game Perception (containment thread)
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Billy Idol
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But how can you compare PS4 games to PC games with TitanX enabled Ultra settings, arguing about tesselation and less detail to prove that the PS4 graphics are not special with a straight face?!?
You even enforced it, by saying 'what's the problem, tec is tec'.
Does not compute.
PS: sorry for all the personal attacks, I'll take it back: I would be happy to have you as a student!!
You even enforced it, by saying 'what's the problem, tec is tec'.
Does not compute.
PS: sorry for all the personal attacks, I'll take it back: I would be happy to have you as a student!!
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I still do bring some interesting discussion.
It wouldn't have mattered at all.. eventually someone was going to cry to a Moderator who was biased to the PS4 and my ban was inevitable.
I'm happy to see that there are some mature mods out here (i.e. Shifty) that don't take things so personal.
For the record, I never said "console chips are based on OpenGL". I said it is very rare to find developers that develop their engines in pure assembly thinking that ND was somehow going to make a PS4 do things that no one else could because they were "coding to the metal" was a ludicrous statement -- and still is.
Ohh please, gaf mods appeared shortly after people were called idiots and they only tried to tell you that future ps4 won't use any opengl or directx and there wasn't even a single uncharted 4 teaser on internet then( summer 2013 or so). Then you tried to create strawman about sony fanboys, coding to metal is pixie dust etc.
Low level optimizations are real and bring tangible advantages, for example go and read posts of real time expert about bindless textures on this very board. After many years of availability only in console apis, many of them will also be exposed in high level pc apis too. It's okay to be a little hyped now, nobody will hurt your peesee. You can even see it in action when looking at gulf in specs required to run ROTR at similar settings on pc and xbone.
Now you are trying to say that low level techniques are not real because not everyone in the devteam is requied to know assembler? . I can only say LOL. I didn't think that offline cg stuff is so different that it's causing such uninformed claims or maybe people are only allowed be a little impressed only if there is a chAAAnce for... pc port with better shadows and muliplication of texels and polygons in high end gpu unused... Last gen pc boys at least had crysis ( and many others ) I can see from where that itch to downplay is coming( or not coming to pc) from and uncharted is not even impressing me that much.
VFX_Veteran
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Very interesting talk (I watched about 40mins of it). Thanks for the link!
Yea, pretty interesting to see their engine was designed around the PS4's cores. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not for future hardware. I guess if they depend on a console cycle that lasts for 5 or so years, porting shouldn't be to costly, but every 2yrs would be pushing it. I'd love to see some of the graphics engine stuff though. Neat that they made parallel the CPU/GPU jobs to reach that 16ms!
VFX_Veteran
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Because PS/Xbox games are compared to PC games all the time. They have been for years and will continue to be compared... that's just the way it is really.
It also answers the big generation question -- "How close is the general videogame consensus' best looking game to CG?" We all are waiting for that day to happen. And well, the game that has the most checklist features and are used properly by artists is going to be the closest. These days, since the PC has taken several leaps ahead in the hardware department, it's been multi-platform games running on the PC (or made specifically with the PC in mind) rendered by really robust graphics engines and extremely talented artists.
VFX_Veteran
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I don't think I've called anyone an idiot. Please link me to that.
Even looking at the ND presentation and talking about multi-threading, parallelism, and synchronization, you don't see code written "to the metal". My definition of that is assembly, not C++ using wrappers for mutex locking and atomic memory allocation and stack/thread management. The Lead Programmer at Naughty Dog even mentions that they made an API for the rest of their programmers to use. Granted the engine is hard-coded to use the exact number of cores on the PS4, but I wouldn't consider that coding to the metal at all.
Sure. But you are arguing semantics. I'm saying.. give me an example of where low level optimization allowed a developer to say deliver 2-3x the speed of a rendering job by lower level access (for example using the ND talk) such that you could get away with adding say -- parallax occlusion mapping. Or even allowing self-occlusion when the character is in shadows and still run at 16ms. In that ND talk, they were analyzing a frame and seeing several gaps in-between jobs where they could use close to 100% efficiency. They don't say that they were able to lower execution speed of the rendering jobs through low level access.
VFX_Veteran
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Brit, I thought Shifty made this thread for comparisons?
No, he made it as a catch all shit bucket because users fail to self moderate and we're tired of having to wipe their asses to clean up.
VFX_Veteran
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Gotcha. So basically we are not allowed to continue this discussion on this thread. Where should I make a thread? General Discussions?
I suggest RSPC since it involves the Religion of the PC Master Race.
Read the presentation taming the Jaguar of Insomniac Games GDC 2016. Do some assembly x86 can be slower than let the compiler and the out of order execution take care of the job, just use cache friendly datastructure and good SIMD code. It is not in order CPU like CELL or XeCPU...
https://deplinenoise.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/gdc16_fredriksson_jaguar.pdf
Assembly is probably rarely used and for repetitive treatment probably on GPU.
I think I saw a programmer talk about using a little shader assembly on twitter.
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Of course it isn't! That's why the PS3 code was a mess running on a Ps4. But this is the trade-off of having optimized code for a specific architecture.
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Should be fine next to the Ferrari vs Fiat comparison thread. I mean, tech is tech, right??
I wanted to address some of your posts but although I'll highlight this one, what I hope to let you know is that comparisons between consoles versus PC (aka Microsoft Windows O.S. platform) although gamers may compare, they have different histories.
Consoles have had optimized custom coding by talented dev teams making the "not listed features or thought impossible features" as "possible in some type of form" hence my mention of "mode 7" which is a 16 bit era thing where on Sega Genesis/MEGA Drive a third party (among many titles) like Contra Hard Corps rivaled that limitation thinking or effects matching.
Later on during the early 2000s when volumetric grass was thought "not possible or too much" for Sony's PlayStation 2 (as console gamer hype was under the direct bombardment of influence of PC gaming API evangelism) games like Shadow of the Colossus and Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater "featured" such "checklist features thought not possible" and of course reaching the limitations of that hardware.
However as far as PC Gaming hype/evangelism it has a completely different history because it was all about "raw super power beyond consoles" which was left gagging for words trying to explain why GoldenEye 007 and Turok were doing some advanced stuff that took PCs armed with Voodoo SLI to hardly match but due to time perception such comparisons were dismissed by the PC gamer hype...this is because there has to be a way (not a logical reason) to explain why spending more money than what a console costs is somehow "equal" to superior experience and visuals.
I don't want to derail or sound wrong to you but PC gaming hype evangelism (I use this word as it was mentioned back in the 90s PC print mags) became a "checklists features" marketing justifier to getting people to believe that spending every 6 to 9 months on new parts would make sense which is what the PC gaming hype evangelism is based on.
I am not saying that PC gaming is inferior or superior, just pointing out how the marketing hype via evangelism worked because even back in the confusing 90s, console gamers didn't have to worry about cost to justify spending big bucks, the cost was the actual software.
Contrary to popular belief, consoles were not "bad because they were expensive", the SNK Neo Geo, although it was expensive, was tied to SNK and it's software contracts delivering what was then the ultimate in graphics but it only failed not because of price but because SNES and Genesis managed to make seemingly simple but amazing experiences with great graphics that because such a thing was not matched properly, it didn't make much of a difference for SNK and not that they suffered initially from software support.
PC gaming hype relies heavily on marketing the checklist features with switches or sliders because part of the evangelism is about getting you to open your wallet to buy that new card or part which were usually replaced every 6 to 9 months with new tech while consumers would replace them depending on their budgets (and bragging needs)
When you mentioned about the Unreal Engine being shown to have those impressive tech demos, EPIC Games is in the business to sell their 3d engine which is good for them but it does not mean that they wholly represent all of PC gaming or console gaming...otherwise Crytek, Id Software and DICE would be chopped liver. They all have their different targets and business models.
Tech demos, specially on PC have always been mentioned to be "simple tech demos" meaning they were not a game demo where A.I., collision detection and gameplay mechanics among others, are present. That is why tech demos tend to be amazing, yet people unfortunately believe in them too much. Tech demos are extremely necessary to showcase new effects and features but it's the games that ship to retail that are what sell software and hardware again.
Unfortunately I cannot find proper links or urls or videos showing you stuff because for the most part, people under the PC gaming hype will never really consider these things from a historical context as they are mostly under the hype of the evangelism. Console gamers and tech fans don't concern themselves too much...they may accept that PC parts have higher numerical values but although they don't explicitly say it, they just keep playing the games and talking about the experiences.
The best video I can think of about PC gaming evangelism is this one:
Although that video represents more of what a retail shop wants to do, they do repeat many of the same marketing bullet points of the time that were featured in print magazines and online sites where games and hardware gets reviewed...yet keep in mind that the video represents a retail shop.
Unfortunately PC gamers, under their "master race" and "hype and evangelism" tend to be very dismissive and blaming of consoles due to superficial power differences and "obsolescence released hardware"
They are just two different things that get ignorant comparisons. Even if we as tech fans may complain about the hardware choices, it doesn't stop both multiplatform or first/second/third party exclusives from pushing the tech that the experience and visuals balance out and memorable console games become legends even if they never get accepted by the PC gamer elitists.
I hope I didn't make it read confusing, was thinking about it and writing as I went by memory. We may fall under the hype but we also do recognize hardcore effort and revolutionary games and hardware as well but the common "blame the console peasants" is a path to ruin because the marketing is just based on different intentions and price levels.
Mind you, despite much negativity, a game like Id Software's RAGE was able to offer a multiplatform experience not only on two consoles, but on both the PC (Windows) and Mac OS Personal Computers...and probably Linux as well. That game had a major problem with it's ending sequence...other than that, any technical problems were smoothed out to be much more playable.
Crysis 1 and Warhead suffered from being unplayable at high settings and getting outsold by the storm phenomenon that became of CoD Modern Warfare in sales war.
Finally while there may be some ridiculous praise by console gamers on a console game in its own thread, mind you that such praise is justified inside it's own thread... its always a bad idea to compare two different things but I'll leave it at that and probably come back and edit my post a bit if it was confusing but I compresses nearly three decades into one forum post.
Look at pc screenshot threads vs console equivalents. PC is so uninspired in comparison, trying their best to super downsample the game to the point where it's not even playable anymore. The result often doesn't even have artistic value.
That always gave me the impression that PC gamers are in their teens
That always gave me the impression that PC gamers are in their teens
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