Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]

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It definitely could be much worse for them. Reviving UWP in some box except this time they'd have to give 2 suppliers who's not going to be on good terms with each other for much longer their "fair share of the cut". None of the traditional advantages of a console (low cost & low level APIs) with a user experience like PC (compilation stutters/DRM/regressions/etc) ...

Consumers are just going to see Microsoft as another OEM (and not a good one at that) since all they're offering is a PC with less functionality dressed up as a console ...

If Microsoft's plan is to force Sony into a total reset (no BC/compatible tools) then that's not going to work out as they think since basic game theory dictates that sticking with AMD will allow Sony to retain most of their prior advantages. Sony isn't as afraid as you think they are of doing something different from everyone else when they've done exactly that more often than not. It's not like Sony has much of choice but to carve up the industry once more which has a very real chance of happening if Microsoft is going to deny them transferrable development resources from PC ...

PC gamers should be grateful that console exclusivity has been the exception rather than the rule otherwise they would have far more titles like Red Dead Redemption which are still stuck on consoles. So I assume you've made your peace with a fractured industry based on your last few statements then ?
No, not really. Sony's doing the best they can do, and MS is basically dropping every ball tossed to them. PC does just fine... and a specific box to target should alleviate a lot of those concerns.

Of course, we could always just ask developers to do better. We know they can.

I don't know what you're talking about with regards to Microsoft denying Sony transferrable dev resources... What does that even mean? You mean if MS does something which changes AMD from being the defacto console hardware supplier??

If pubs/devs are saying shit like "PC gamers should be greateful..." then good riddance. Stick to consoles. They probably released shitty ports of games anyway. Developers and publishers are the ones who should be grateful that people buy the trash half of them put out there these days.
 
No, not really. Sony's doing the best they can do, and MS is basically dropping every ball tossed to them. PC does just fine... and a specific box to target should alleviate a lot of those concerns.

Of course, we could always just ask developers to do better. We know they can.

I don't know what you're talking about with regards to Microsoft denying Sony transferrable dev resources... What does that even mean? You mean if MS does something which changes AMD from being the defacto console hardware supplier?
There's a reason why Nvidia hides their ISA from everyone else since they don't want developers specifically optimizing their code for any of their specific architectures. Unless Microsoft outright gives them a gfx API monopoly you're still going to get compilation stutters and regressions but at that point the idea of PC being the "premiere gaming preservation" platform comes under threat since x86 CPU vendors will get suspicious and start moving on to Linux or other proprietary platforms. As time goes on they'll become more reluctant to provide Windows based systems with their CPUs since there are less hostile platforms out there for them to generate more value and Microsoft will be left with nothing but obsolete software ...
You're still not getting anywhere close to dropping everyone else and focusing on Sony... 🤷‍♂️
Nobody said anything about "dropping everyone else" but games are going to have to be split again along PC/console lines because of different hardware designs ...

Since Microsoft are more interested in being some PC OEM rather than providing a real console, I imagine a good chunk of existing Xbox customers will make the jump to the next closest console rather than move to PC if they haven't already ...
 
There's a reason why Nvidia hides their ISA from everyone else since they don't want developers specifically optimizing their code for any of their specific architectures. Unless Microsoft outright gives them a gfx API monopoly you're still going to get compilation stutters and regressions but at that point the idea of PC being the "premiere gaming preservation" platform comes under threat since x86 CPU vendors will get suspicious and start moving on to Linux or other proprietary platforms. As time goes on they'll become more reluctant to provide Windows based systems with their CPUs since there are less hostile platforms out there for them to generate more value and Microsoft will be left with nothing but obsolete software ...

Nobody said anything about "dropping everyone else" but games are going to have to be split again along PC/console lines because of different hardware designs ...

Since Microsoft are more interested in being some PC OEM rather than providing a real console, I imagine a good chunk of existing Xbox customers will make the jump to the next closest console rather than move to PC if they haven't already ...
Well you mentioned Sony carving out the console industry, didn't you? That would mean developers doing work making/porting for multiple radically different codebases, or just supporting Sony.. as you alluded they would.

Sony going "exotic" as you put it doesn't just carve out consoles from PC.. it carves out Sony from the rest of the consoles. Now either devs are going to have a bunch more work to do... or they are going to pick a side. I'm reminded of when Sony released PS3 and thought that people would run out and happily get 2nd jobs to buy one, and when development was so much more difficult that only their internal studios really understood the thing, after years of working with it. Or the WiiU after the success of the Wii. Sony aren't untouchable... the market can change on a dime. Nothing is sacred.

I imagine a good chunk of Xbox owners already own PCs too... and I think GamePass and Xbox account/profile already being on PC makes that jump more logical. Their players are already conditioned to subscribe to GP and not buy games from the store. If they were going to jump to a Playstation console, it would have probably already happened by now and already counts towards "consoles"... meaning it's not going to grow that market substantially.

If consoles were truly to break and start over... I think you'd be surprised at how many people would just drop them and game on PC.. where they already have libraries and accounts. Especially when a PC can be in a desktop, handheld, or set top box form factor. I mean, can you imagine if Switch 2 doesn't have backwards compatibility and tries to change things up again? That would be potentially disastrous for Nintendo. A MASSIVE risk. A lot of people would be pissed.. and yet, it's going to happen.. eventually.. It will have to happen.

Every console generation starts from zero. 3rd parties making AAA games take ENORMOUS risk at the start of a generation putting a game on consoles with no established install base to sell to. Now separate that into developers making a single console only game.. and the risk goes up even further.

So what's left for consoles? Nintendo already does handhelds based on mobile hardware. Sony and Microsoft should both be grateful that AMD is able to provide them with something that works and is based around concepts they understand well already.
 
Do we suddenly understand why dropping PC is out of the question?

Sure, they aren't going to drop PC, but can you also see why PC doesn't get a lot of optimization effort compared to PS5? Even Xbox doesn't get as much optimization effort as PS5. It's just the reality of the market.

It's also why, in general you won't see a huge effort into putting in things into games that aren't on console.

Regards,
SB
 
Sure, they aren't going to drop PC, but can you also see why PC doesn't get a lot of optimization effort compared to PS5? Even Xbox doesn't get as much optimization effort as PS5. It's just the reality of the market.

My guess is this is because of legacy thinking from publishers. They spent so many years with the notion that games sell most on consoles that its gonna require some time to move from that. In the last 3 years PC exploded mightily and the biggest games routinely sell the most on PC. Since Cyberpunk doing most of its load on PC, we've had 3 singleplayer games crack steam's top 10 CC. Games where we have data, like Elden Ring selling near 50% of its total on steam. Diablo 4 sold near 70% on PC, with ps5 at 20% and xbox at 4% i think. Then, in absence of platform specific numbers, we can make educated guesses based on steam's CC number and the total sales from publishers. Dying Light 2 most likely also sold half on PC. RE4 remake also likely sold half on PC. Hogwarts Legacy has very similar numbers to Elden Ring - half of its total on PC again. The recent Armored Core probably also half. The game surprisingly is nr 73 of all time on steam. From also took great care of the version after Elden Ring sold more on PC than every console sku combined. Hopefully they maintain it in the future. Baldurs Gate 3 very likely exceeded 10 million copies sold on steam. It got so big that Spencer advertised Starfield with the CC number of players, after BG3 had its impressive run.

The only thing i see happening in the future is PC demolishing consoles even harder than it already does, as its user number continues to grow year after year, while consoles have the same numbers as 20 years ago. Certainly not sony carving jack shit or PC being thrown to the side
 
Sure, they aren't going to drop PC, but can you also see why PC doesn't get a lot of optimization effort compared to PS5? Even Xbox doesn't get as much optimization effort as PS5. It's just the reality of the market.

It's also why, in general you won't see a huge effort into putting in things into games that aren't on console.

Regards,
SB
Because it’s much much harder to optimize for PC? A console environment is ostensibly more developer friendly.
 
Well you mentioned Sony carving out the console industry, didn't you? That would mean developers doing work making/porting for multiple radically different codebases, or just supporting Sony.. as you alluded they would.

Sony going "exotic" as you put it doesn't just carve out consoles from PC.. it carves out Sony from the rest of the consoles. Now either devs are going to have a bunch more work to do... or they are going to pick a side. I'm reminded of when Sony released PS3 and thought that people would run out and happily get 2nd jobs to buy one, and when development was so much more difficult that only their internal studios really understood the thing, after years of working with it. Or the WiiU after the success of the Wii. Sony aren't untouchable... the market can change on a dime. Nothing is sacred.
They can either pick a side or do fewer multiplatform projects ...

Sony could very well fumble but more often than not they succeed and I don't see the incentive of developing software for consoles disappearing anytime soon ...
I imagine a good chunk of Xbox owners already own PCs too... and I think GamePass and Xbox account/profile already being on PC makes that jump more logical. Their players are already conditioned to subscribe to GP and not buy games from the store. If they were going to jump to a Playstation console, it would have probably already happened by now and already counts towards "consoles"... meaning it's not going to grow that market substantially.
Some may have gaming PCs but not all of them so there are still holdouts over there for whatever reason.
If consoles were truly to break and start over... I think you'd be surprised at how many people would just drop them and game on PC.. where they already have libraries and accounts. Especially when a PC can be in a desktop, handheld, or set top box form factor. I mean, can you imagine if Switch 2 doesn't have backwards compatibility and tries to change things up again? That would be potentially disastrous for Nintendo. A MASSIVE risk. A lot of people would be pissed.. and yet, it's going to happen.. eventually.. It will have to happen.
PC isn't a threat to consoles at all which is why we see Sony release games on PC which is another one of their main adversary's platform ...

Nintendo's next generation successor may not have hardware BC but that's solely on Nvidia refusing to provide a stable ISA in the first place because they don't want developers optimizing for any of their architectures. That's why you see Nintendo taking forever to make a decision on when to release their next platform or choice of hardware since they may not necessarily have a straightforward successor in mind ...
So what's left for consoles? Nintendo already does handhelds based on mobile hardware. Sony and Microsoft should both be grateful that AMD is able to provide them with something that works and is based around concepts they understand well already.
The fact that it's a 150m+ strong market that developers can make a lucrative living off of ...

As another example, EA Games makes over 2.5x as much in revenue on consoles compared to PC. Consoles are clearly here to stay until at least the next generation ...
 
If that was true Sony wouldn't be so opposed to day and date releases. There most definitely is a threat that pc releases day and date could impact their sales on their platform where they don't have to cough up 20-30%.
Wouldn’t go so far as to call PC a "threat" to console. Threat implies danger with the potential to kill. I don’t think this would ever happen.

Do their markets overlap? Yes. Can PC take some sales away from consoles? Absolutely. Still, they’re distinct markets that can coexist and thrive.

As for why Sony isn’t releasing day and date, it’s obvious. For one, multiplatform development would delay their releases and make the upfront development cost higher. For two, they want to maximize their profits on Playstation. They don’t need to cut 20-30% to Steam.
 
Do their markets overlap ? No. Not in a way that has a large enough impact. Piscatella had a tweet a year or so ago, something like single digit percentage of ps5 owners also have a PC, just for the US market. (meaning everywhere else on the planet with a lower economy this is going to be anywhere from an even lower percentage to practically zero overlaping) Data coming from one of those trofee tracking sites, so high chance of that data being bullshit with too little and innacurate information. I would have bet the total number is even lower.

More involved people like us, posting on forums and talking about it may skew our perception into thinking that surelly every pc gamer alive also has a console, but no. they don't. Piscatella was pointing out this is the reason Sony started its PC adventure, precisely because its an almost entirely distinct, untapped market for them.
 
Do their markets overlap ? No. Not in a way that has a large enough impact. Piscatella had a tweet a year or so ago, something like single digit percentage of ps5 owners also have a PC, just for the US market. (meaning everywhere else on the planet with a lower economy this is going to be anywhere from an even lower percentage to practically zero overlaping) Data coming from one of those trofee tracking sites, so high chance of that data being bullshit with too little and innacurate information. I would have bet the total number is even lower.

More involved people like us, posting on forums and talking about it may skew our perception into thinking that surelly every pc gamer alive also has a console, but no. they don't. Piscatella was pointing out this is the reason Sony started its PC adventure, precisely because its an almost entirely distinct, untapped market for them.
A game that sells 3M copies to an install base of 40M is a single digit percentage of players buying the game too...

Both "install bases" of PS5 and PC have millions and millions of players who barely game. Maybe they very casually play.. but the percentage that do buy lots of games, overlap and have both platforms.

Matt said that ~8% of PC owners in America also own a PS5.... Do you know how big of a number 8% of PC owners in America is? A lot.

But that's not all he said was it... He also said 1/3 PC owners owned a PS4..... That is 33% of PC players owning a PS4... That is a gargantuan number.
 
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No, they don't. Besides the fact that you don't have any data for such a claim, we can just look at it logically. Every large, succesfull game, sells multiple millions on every platform. You wouldn't have this if playerbases would overlap. Besides, until the 2010s, PC and console had pretty much entirely different games. You would get a pc or a console because you wanted to play the specific games that they offered. Plus Asia being near entirely pc focuses since forever. Pretty much the entirety of eastern europe is pc only since the dawn of time. Western europe as well outside UK until the 360 gen.

There was even another one of these bullshity tracking sites making claims some time ago



Even when you have the highest ever overlap between PC and console players, its still a spit in the ocean. PC and consoles have always been separate markets

But that's not all he said was it... He also said 1/3 PC owners owned a PS4..... That is 33% of PC players owning a PS4... That is a gargantuan number.

No, its not a gargantuan number. Besides having serious doubts about that number, like i said. Thats only for the US market. You can bet your life anywhere else this is lower to non existent. His entire tweet was about the enourmous size of the pc market left untaped by sony. He literally posted that to show how small the overlap is. How some people took his post and made it seem every pc player has a playstation is the most resetera thing ever
 
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My guess is this is because of legacy thinking from publishers. They spent so many years with the notion that games sell most on consoles that its gonna require some time to move from that. In the last 3 years PC exploded mightily and the biggest games routinely sell the most on PC. Since Cyberpunk doing most of its load on PC, we've had 3 singleplayer games crack steam's top 10 CC. Games where we have data, like Elden Ring selling near 50% of its total on steam. Diablo 4 sold near 70% on PC, with ps5 at 20% and xbox at 4% i think. Then, in absence of platform specific numbers, we can make educated guesses based on steam's CC number and the total sales from publishers. Dying Light 2 most likely also sold half on PC. RE4 remake also likely sold half on PC. Hogwarts Legacy has very similar numbers to Elden Ring - half of its total on PC again. The recent Armored Core probably also half. The game surprisingly is nr 73 of all time on steam. From also took great care of the version after Elden Ring sold more on PC than every console sku combined. Hopefully they maintain it in the future. Baldurs Gate 3 very likely exceeded 10 million copies sold on steam. It got so big that Spencer advertised Starfield with the CC number of players, after BG3 had its impressive run.

The only thing i see happening in the future is PC demolishing consoles even harder than it already does, as its user number continues to grow year after year, while consoles have the same numbers as 20 years ago. Certainly not sony carving jack shit or PC being thrown to the side

Interesting that you think PC is exploding. Depending on the publisher it's slightly up, slightly down, or basically the split as it was years ago.

For example, UBIsoft PC share.
  • 2018-2019: 27%
  • 2019-2020: 26%
  • 2020-2021: 23%
  • 2021-2022: 26%
  • 2022-2023: 18%
That's certainly not exploding. :p The same goes for ABK with revenue split between console and PC basically being the same as it has been for the past 5 years. Consoles dominate for Activision while PC dominates for Blizzard. So, again, not exploding.

CDPR was historically a PC only developer. They only started releasing on consoles starting with Xbox with TW2, the both consoles starting with TW3. Unsurprisingly they sell better on PC than consoles due to their fanbase being mostly PC players. Ditto for Diablo, again it's a PC title that happens to now also get released on consoles.

Elden Ring as well as the Souls games are certainly good examples of a console developer doing well on PC. The difficulty of the games is likely the big attraction for PC gamers. That is definitely an outlier.

Oh and Dying Light 2? The last breakdown I saw had it at 12% of sales for the PC version. This was for Mar. 2022, so perhaps it went on to sell massively better on PC after that?

So, yes there are some few games that sell better on PC than on console. I've generally pointed out when that happens. For example, you missed another big title that sold better on PC, Doom (another historically PC dominated IP). In general, however, the majority of AAA titles sell better on console than PC.

We're at a point where if you are a AAA developer you basically have to release on all the platforms that you can if you want to survive. But unless you are a PC first developer (very rare) the PS5 will be getting the most optimization effort from AAA developers because that's generally the platform they will sell the most games on and/or the platform they are the most familiar with (From Software, for example will still optimize more heavily for PS5 than PC just because they are a Japanese developer).

Regards,
SB
 
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It's not that i think PC is exploding, it's actually exploding and im just observing the numbers from the data we have. In the last 2.5 years, since Cyberpunk, we have 4 singleplayer games entering steam's top 10 most played games. Cyberpunk, Elden Ring, BG3 and Hogwarts. Your presence in this top 10 is almost assured you have 10 million copies sold straight from that small launch window. Ski's the limit after.

We know from the microsoft lawsuit that PC is the biggest traditional market, contrary to what i thought until now

There's essentially 3 sources of hardware on which gaming happens. Mobile is the largest, it's about 70%, what I'm showing here is global gaming revenue by 2021. About $150 billion, about 70%. PC gaming is about $33 billion, console gaming at $28 billion.

We also look at how steam became this giant only in the last few years. Daily concurent numbers

  • 2015- 8.4 million
  • 2017- 14 million
  • 2018- 18.5 million
  • 2020- 24.8 million
  • 2021- 27.4 million
  • 2022- 30 million
  • 2023- 33 million

Naturally, some publishers that have been fully console focused since forever like ubisoft or EA are not gonna have some amazing PC presence. But even in cases like that, where they dont even had their games on steam, like ubi, they have quarters where PC is matching playstation for number one, like they did a couple of years ago. These numbers would have seemed like the most absurd things ever 10 years ago. Sorry for offtopic, last post on this matter
 
PC gaming is also becoming increasingly popular in Japan, a rather important market.

https://www.pcgamer.com/japanese-pc-gaming-saw-another-year-of-explosive-growth/

The reality is, it’s far easier to optimize games for a single closed platform than the thousands of possible PC configurations. That they sell the most on PS5 has little to do with the reason they’re the most "optimized" there. It’s simply logical.
Hmmm I tend to after with your first point about Japan, but slightly disagree with your second point about the ease of it being the reason why PC releases have more trouble. It makes sense that some things on PC are harder to do due to the amount of configurations, yes, but also you have PC versions just missing the boat completely with absolutely basic things... like working mouse on the UI (Jedi Survivor) or hilariously obvious shader comp stutter which shows a blatant disregard for quality (Jedi Survivor, Callisto Protocol at launch, Sackboy at launch, etc). No human being should have looked at Sackboy, Jedi Survivor or Callisto at launch running on a PC and Said "yeah that is the bar of quality that should be released". I personally think no publisher would release such a high Profile game on a console with such issues.

When PC as a platform gets high profile releases failing to cover very very very basic user experience things only on PC, I think it points to the fact that devs or publishers or combination of the two are not giving PC its fair share of time and money investment.
 
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Hmmm I tend to after with your first point about Japan, but slightly disagree with your second point about the ease of it being the reason why PC releases have more trouble. It makes sense that some things on PC are harder to do due to the amount of configurations, yes, but also you have PC versions just missing the boat completely with absolutely basic things... like working mouse on the UI (Jedi Survivor) or hilariously obvious shader comp stutter which shows a blatant disregard for quality (Jedi Survivor, Callisto Protocol at launch, Sackboy at launch, etc). No human being should have looked at Sackboy, Jedi Survivor or Callisto at launch running on a PC and Said "yeah that is the bar of quality that should be released". I personally think no publisher would release such a high Profile game on a console with such issues.

When PC as a platform gets high profile releases failing to cover very very very basic user experience things only on PC, I think it points to the fact that devs or publishers or combination of the two are not giving PC its fair share of time and money investment.
Oh, absolutely. There are definitely plenty of cases where the developer/publisher simply doesn't care and can't be bothered to properly port their games to PC. I just think that by and large, the main reason that console games release in a more acceptable state their PC counterparts is the ease of development. The question was chiefly in regards to performance.

Shader compilation problems are an issue that you're all too familiar with and at this point we have to assume it's a challenge that developers simply do not know how to tackle. It's so pervasive that I have difficulties believing so many top-tier developers have no idea how to deal with it. Some games do try pre-compilation but it only serves to mitigate the issue. Most likely, tons of shaders end up being missed during the pre-compilation process, something that wouldn't happen on consoles due to the fact that number of configurations is several orders of magnitude lower than on PC. It also seem to mainly affect UE4 so there has to be some piece of the puzzle we're missing.
 
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