Developers have conditioned and treated the PC market as an open beta of sorts. Release stuff with basic things missing or not working, let the community build a bug list for you and run with it.
Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2023]
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Developers have conditioned and treated the PC market as an open beta of sorts. Release stuff with basic things missing or not working, let the community build a bug list for you and run with it.
It’s worse than the previous denoiser?
I'm not seeing this at all. Also one of the selling points according to the Digital Foundry interview on the tech was it's ability to improve NPC faces so I can't see this being a normal thing. Are you using the latest driver?
Ghosting around NPC's in environments with lots of dynamic lights is severe, but switching RR off, it appears to still be present with the previous denoiser, just not as obvious because the lighting isn't updating as often.
DavidGraham
Veteran
What a complete elitist thing to say, if some developer thinks like that then he deserves to be denied PC gamers money. He should stick to his console and let another publisher release his game on PC and make the profit.
Every PC gamer has made his peace long time ago, as I said, PC gamers simply just don't care, they didn't care being denied all of the PlayStation exclusives in the past, and they mostly didn't care when these games have been ported to PC, as evidenced by most of them not achieving the knock out hit status in sales.
From a single country, in a single month for a single game "Resident Evil 4" that is still in the process of selling. Comparatively Speaking, and looking at a global scale, Resident 2 Remake sold 1 million copies on PC in it's first two months, 1/3 of total console sales. That's a very respectable number.
Resident Evil 2 has sold more Steam copies than Resident Evil 7
The remake of Resident Evil 2 has sold over a million copies on Steam, pulling ahead of Resident Evil 7
www.pcgamesn.com
It's could totally work out, instead of offering a carbon copy of PS5 hardware, with no meaningful quality differentiator, they could offer vastly more powerful ray tracing visuals, even path tracing as well, while also offering a vastly more capable upscaler with a vastly better frame generation. Microsoft has a solid collection of Studios now, they will be able to offer both the exclusive games and the technical prowess to back them up and differentiate themselves more from the PlayStation experience, instead of the stale mate status that we have now.
Yeah, that reason is called progress, you iterate faster and invent new stuff more quickly, as opposed to offering the same feature set for a whole generation.
But it's the exact opposite and exactly what Alex reported in the video.
Look at how much ray reconstruction blurs the face. This is exactly what I'm experiencing and it's bad.
It is still present but with ray reconstruction, it's even worse.
For blurring faces? 100% worse.
That’s pretty bad. Hope they fix it otherwise I might need to wait for the RTX 9090 and run DSR 4x.
That must be a fairly rare occurrence though as I can't re-produce it on any NPC's while walking around the city. I've not played it properly though, just a few minutes of wandering and taking on the sites.
Does the PC version of these games allow you to run the cutscenes or special moves at 60 fps? Do the settings allow you to enable the enhanced graphics from these sections during gameplay?
It is easy to see with NPCs in the background. Seems like DLSS upscaling and RR have problems to proper denoise this part. Playing native with DLAA and RR this ghosting is nearly non existent.
But on the other hand RR is really good in closer enviroments: https://imgsli.com/MjA4OTIy
But on the other hand RR is really good in closer enviroments: https://imgsli.com/MjA4OTIy
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
Yes, but it's not due to growth in AAA sales, it's due to massive growth in indie game sales. Hence basically almost no changes for splits or even revenue for most AAA developers on average (some slightly up, some slightly down, some basically flat) despite Steam getting more users.
Concurrent users also generally tracks with multiplayer games, IE - the most played games are why people are actually logged into steam usually. And then you will briefly have single player games pop up from time to time if there's a new content patch or a new release. That bears out when you look at the most played games on Steam.
So, CS-GO, DOTA 2, PUBG, APEX Legends, GTA V (online multiplayer), RUST, Warthunder, etc are almost always in the top 10 as they currently are. Then the new hotness of Starfield, CP2077 (new DLC) and BG3. Those last 3 will drop out in the next few weeks or months and other AAA games may or may not take their place.
Then if you look at trending games, IE what's getting people to play more, it's generally indie/AA games and multiplayer games with a AAA game occasionally showing up.
Regards,
SB
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
It's legitimately horrible. I turned it off because it can be so jarring and distracting. In large crowds, it's a blurry smear of npcs moving about.
DavidGraham
Veteran
DLSS3.5 in UE5 with Path Tracing and Nanite, better performance, and significantly better image quality.
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The original PT stuff was pretty impressive but had a fair bit of noise and ghosting, so I was hoping ray reconstruction helped with that stuff. I gave it a quick shot today and my experience was honestly pretty mixed. It definitely helps sharpness in reflections and shadows, but that wasn't really my primary complaint before.
In terms of noise, I think it's slightly better than before, especially in specular reflections.
In terms of ghosting though, it's a very mixed bad. Before dynamic objects would make the background blurry. This was particularly noticeable when you opened doors and the like or when a character walked across an area that is primarily indirect lit. You'd effectively have them smear the background behind them into a blur that would resolve over the next half second or so.
Some of these cases are slightly improved now in terms of how far away from the dynamic object the smearing happens, but on the downside the length of the temporal integration/ghosting artifacts is *significantly* longer. The ML model seems to be leaning far too heavily on re-using these samples as long as they are somewhat "close" to pixels that have non-zero motion vectors. Instead of rejecting these history samples, it is keeping them whereas the previous denoiser seemed to be tuned a bit more to reject these samples with disparate depths/spatial locations and then have to reconstruct a blurry result from spatial samples.
The main issue is that the old denoiser artifacts were somewhat proportional to the amount of perceived motion in the frame. i.e. if an NPC was walking close to you across the screen or a door opened across most of the frame, it'd get very blurry for a second, but if the scene had relatively slow movement the ghosting wouldn't be too bad. This also has the benefit that the higher your sample count/frame rate the less issues you have as everything is effectively moving "slower" relative to the sampling. With the new ray reconstruction stuff even at 100fps (real frames, not frame gen) on a 4090 you get significant artifacts even with very little movement. For instance, this is just NPC idle sway animation:
Unfortunately you don't really have to cherry-pick to find these cases.
I don't know how I feel about this overall TBH. There's some legit improvements for sure but unless they can resolve these issues without hurting the other improvements I don't know if I'd really consider this shippable quality. Hopefully this is just a case of something buggy with motion vectors or similar, but it doesn't seem to be unique to skeletal meshes; it happens even with camera panning which is one of the simplest motions.
Ideally this could also just be a case where they improve things significantly in a future update, like they did from DLSS 1.0 to 2.0. I like the simplicity of just dumping a bunch of data into an ML model and letting it sort things out, but it doesn't seem like we've gotten there yet. It remains to be seen if we just need some better tuning/training, more input data, or if ultimately doing this temporal denoising entirely in screen space might not be sufficient. Or maybe the RT sampling rate just needs to go up a fair bit and we're just trying to push this too far right now, even at 100fps with DLSS Quality (I even tried no upscaling and the artifacts were the same).
Anyways as usual very interesting tech and I appreciate them putting it out for us to play around with, and Alex and DF giving us some good analysis. Just feels like we still have some ways to go before this is usable in scenes with even moderate amounts of motion.
I'm going to be honest with you guys, I've played a good 4 hours or so with this Overdrive update, and I never noticed ghosting like I'm seeing in those pics, or like in the video Flappy Pannus pointed out.
I'm going to have another look, because I would definitely notice that issue.
I'm going to have another look, because I would definitely notice that issue.
hopefully it's some bug/local issue, but it looks the same as what's in Alex's video. Look specifically in places where motion is overlapping *indirect* lighting. It's not going to be nearly as bad in places where there's primarily direct lighting contribution of course, since much less reconstruction/filtering is needed in those locations in the first place.- Status
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