All purpose Sales and Sales Rumors and Anecdotes [2016 Edition]

[Rangers]

A NPD guy already said that PS4 Pro = PS4.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=222474347&postcount=73

I know. I was saying if the PS4 Pro wasn't releasing, and it was 1.8TF PS4 (what I meant by Vanilla PS4) against Xbox One, I think XBO would have a solid chance to take Nov and or Dec.

But I think PS4 Pro will boost PS4 sales quite a lot, leaving Xbox One little chance.

Also NPD will definitely break out PS4 Pro results for their subscribers, as they do all SKU's. Whether we will get the breakdown from our shabby leaks, I dont know.

 

[Rangers]

Sure, because if Pro wasn't launching there is no possible way that Sony would be making competitive change to preserve their lead.

Because I definitely said that!

I mean man, implying XBo might have had a chance to win Nov and/or dec if not for PS4pro, what a LOONY TUNES prediction!

 

[dobwal]

We have no ideal how much the pro's imminent release has been suppressing PS4 sales over the last few months. I surmise that more than a few people who would of bought a slim hasn't done so because the release of the pro is around the corner.

No pro could of meant a shorter time as sales leader for the Xbox one S with the PS4 slim returning as the market leader throughout the holidays.

 

[Pixel]

Perhaps its a perspective thing, recently Xbox just upped its game by offering HDR, UHD player, 4K playback and slightly improved performance, UWP, free backwards compatibility and an equally attractive white chassis. The default PS4 on the other hand isn't marketing its new HDR capabilities as well, does not offer UHD player, offers no 4K support, no performance improvements and still no new features and the aesthetics of the new console are inferior to the launch model.

 

[JPT]

We have no ideal how much the pro's imminent release has been suppressing PS4 sales over the last few months. I surmise that more than a few people who would of bought a slim hasn't done so because the release of the pro is around the corner.

I have usually bought a slim upon release. This time I skipped and orderd a Pro instead. I actually started out not planning to buy a pro, due to not having a 4K/HDR tv. But the "extra horsepower" + supersampling/downscale to 1080p on Pro was enticing, so I went with Pro instead of Slim anyway.

Any XB was not on my radar, not due to hardware spec, but because friends play on the PS platform.

So my option was PS4 vs PS4 Slim vs PS4 Pro.

My Pro is scheduled to be delivered today

 

[Deleted member 11852]

oh, I thought retailers were receiving preorders before then though? (before official announcement, regardless of stock?)regardless, lemme re-calculate. edited my post.

I have no doubt some retailers were taking pre-orders earlier than June on the expectation/hope of getting some stock but nobody knew who was getting what volume of stock until June.

 

[iroboto]

I have no doubt some retailers were taking pre-orders earlier than June on the expectation/hope of getting some stock but nobody knew who was getting what volume of stock until June.

much like pre-orders for duke nukem forever
except retailers were in enough know to know that it wasn't vapourware.

 

[Rangers]

We have no ideal how much the pro's imminent release has been suppressing PS4 sales over the last few months. I surmise that more than a few people who would of bought a slim hasn't done so because the release of the pro is around the corner.

No pro could of meant a shorter time as sales leader for the Xbox one S with the PS4 slim returning as the market leader throughout the holidays.

It could definitely be a factor. Xbox has won 3 straight months, and could make it 4 with a win in October. Probably not all coincidence or the alleged attractiveness of the S model. Probably a bit of both.

 

[Rangers]

I have usually bought a slim upon release. This time I skipped and orderd a Pro instead. I actually started out not planning to buy a pro, due to not having a 4K/HDR tv. But the "extra horsepower" + supersampling/downscale to 1080p on Pro was enticing, so I went with Pro instead of Slim anyway.

Any XB was not on my radar, not due to hardware spec, but because friends play on the PS platform.

So my option was PS4 vs PS4 Slim vs PS4 Pro.

My Pro is scheduled to be delivered today

Once news of the enhancements Pro offers to games filters out, it's hard for me to imagine Pro not totally dominating sales. same with Scorpio. I expect MS/Sony to have to come to a reckoning pretty fast that there idea of the original models co existing in the marketplace will very possibly not be viable, as no one will want the underpowered models.

I mean, we have many big triple A releases barely hitting 720P or 900P at 25-30 FPS (or 50 ish) on the OG Xbox/PS4. The extra power is so sorely needed.

 

[iroboto]

Once news of the enhancements Pro offers to games filters out, it's hard for me to imagine Pro not totally dominating sales. same with Scorpio. I expect MS/Sony to have to come to a reckoning pretty fast that there idea of the original models co existing in the marketplace will very possibly not be viable, as no one will want the underpowered models.

I mean, we have many big triple A releases barely hitting 720P or 900P at 25-30 FPS (or 50 ish) on the OG Xbox/PS4. The extra power is so sorely needed.

Not everyone sees it that way. $100 more is not trivial for everyone.

People will ask themselves whether they will actually benefit from an additional $100 expenditure for the graphical clarity or improvements, or whether that $100 is better spent on elsewhere.

Video cards are very much the same thing. There is a 1080/980 but the 1070/970 always sells better. That extra $100 is always just $100 too much for most peoples needs.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Once news of the enhancements Pro offers to games filters out, it's hard for me to imagine Pro not totally dominating sales. same with Scorpio. I expect MS/Sony to have to come to a reckoning pretty fast that there idea of the original models co existing in the marketplace will very possibly not be viable, as no one will want the underpowered models.

This is flawed logic. By your rationale the mass market will opt for the high performance option but this obviously isn't the case. You yourself chose an Xbox One knowing it's performance was below that of the PS4. Low/mid-range graphics cards vastly outsell high end cards.

Your vision of consumer choice could only happen in a world where money was no object.

Good enough is often more than enough for most people in many markets: games, phones, computers, TVs, music. Consoles have never been different and I see nothing here that will change that. That will change the priorities of a 100 million plus gamers who comprise each console generation.

 

[MrFox]

Ultimately it could be different between Sony and MS.

The slim is selling well, it's hovering around #30 on amazon US ranking and sales didn't even drop much when the Pro became available. Many gamers wait a few years into the generation for a lower price and software availability, the Slim makes sense for them. The most critical messaging for the Slim was repeating Pro and Slim are the exact same generation and play all the same games.

MS messaging is different (no more generations) even though in practice it should be full FC/BC, so indistinguishable from being the same generation, at least at launch. But it's implicitly saying it will be an overlapping generation that might get longer software support from new releases. I have no idea how this will play out in the long run.

I'm guessing Scorpio pricing will make or break the launch. To recover any market share (which is still bleeding at a rate of 2:1 for 2016?) they need to be priced the same as PS4P. They must at least beat them in value proposition with a bit more power for the same price. A bit more power for a bit more money won't cut it, because the only sales they'll get will be the gamers who already intended to buy an MS platform anyway, or upgraders, which would leave the market split at the current 2:1.

In the US there's a lot of gamers who are still on 360, and didn't upgrade yet, that's an interesting market to recover.

 

[iroboto]

In the US there's a lot of gamers who are still on 360, and didn't upgrade yet, that's an interesting market to recover.

All of MS' actions since Phil took over has been, IMO, aligned to address this. It's not about besting their competition, it's about building their back their foundation that they lost all too quickly in 2013. Everything they've been working on is now starting to regrow that loss.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

To recover any market share (which is still bleeding at a rate of 2:1 for 2016?) they need to be priced the same as PS4P. They must at least beat them in value proposition with a bit more power for the same price. A bit more power for a bit more money won't cut it, because the only sales they'll get will be the gamers who already intended to buy an MS platform anyway, or upgraders, which would leave the market split at the current 2:1.

All things being equal, that's not going to happen because on paper Scorpio is a fair chunk more powerful. The only way I can see Scorpio matching Pro on pricing is if Sony are being greedy, Microsoft take a profit hit (fanboy nonsense) or if Scorpio is able to leverage new architecture and/or process that means a lower manufacturing cost in real terms.

I am really curious of it what effect Pro has on future PlayStation sales.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Video cards are very much the same thing. There is a 1080/980 but the 1070/970 always sells better. That extra $100 is always just $100 too much for most peoples needs.

Little bit sorry to nitpick but this comparison is not very good because 1070 is pretty close to the 1080 in performance and the price difference is quite a bit more than 100 dollars. Better comparison would be Titan Pascal at $399 vs 1070 at $299. Now which one would you buy? Pro actually is a pretty good deal.

 

[iroboto]

Little bit sorry to nitpick but this comparison is not very good because 1070 is pretty close to the 1080 in performance and the price difference is quite a bit more than 100 dollars. Better comparison would be Titan Pascal at $399 vs 1070 at $299. Now which one would you buy? Pro actually is a pretty good deal.

True but equally so, I wouldn't be comparing absolute cutting edge with near cutting edge and say that's apples to apples comparison to what we are seeing here between a PS4 and a 4Pro.

The point of video card comparison was not to look at spec, but that the price points in each category of video card is perfectly niche for each type of gamer. From the 50, 60, 70, 80, 80TI series. Each one has a price point, and it only takes $X more to make it to the next level.

In many ways the same thing is happening here with PS4 and 4Pro. The difference of $100 may seem like a great deal on paper but the results don't translate to that. We don't see 2x better graphical experience (at 1080p). Sorry it's just not there. You don't get 2x the frame rate either, its supposed to be the same frame rates. Compute power can't make a game more beautiful. It helps surely, but all that true beauty is still mainly up to the developer and the game. Resolution and frame rate is only going to take you so far.

So we're really left with just comparing what the person values compared to what else they can do with that $100 and whether or not PS4 is sufficient enough for their needs. There's a lot to be said about 'a good deal' and whether or not you really need it; lots of great deals out there, but people don't buy every single good deal out there either just because it's a good deal.

 

[Globalisateur]

True but equally so, I wouldn't be comparing absolute cutting edge with near cutting edge and say that's apples to apples comparison to what we are seeing here between a PS4 and a 4Pro.

The point of video card comparison was not to look at spec, but that the price points in each category of video card is perfectly niche for each type of gamer. From the 50, 60, 70, 80, 80TI series. Each one has a price point, and it only takes $X more to make it to the next level.

In many ways the same thing is happening here with PS4 and 4Pro. The difference of $100 may seem like a great deal on paper but the results don't translate to that. We don't see 2x better graphical experience (at 1080p). Sorry it's just not there. You don't get 2x the frame rate either, its supposed to be the same frame rates. Compute power can't make a game more beautiful. It helps surely, but all that true beauty is still mainly up to the developer and the game. Resolution and frame rate is only going to take you so far.

So we're really left with just comparing what the person values compared to what else they can do with that $100 and whether or not PS4 is sufficient enough for their needs. There's a lot to be said about 'a good deal' and whether or not you really need it; lots of great deals out there, but people don't buy every single good deal out there either just because it's a good deal.

Well that's not true anymore. That was what Sony announced before the release of their machine to calm down owners of PS4 but now things are actually different.

Some games will have 2x (or near) framerate improvements (TR2, Infamous, FF15 and I think many more like I suspect for instance God of War 4). Even if the framerate won't be locked, no 3D AAA games on consoles have a locked framerate anyways. None.

And don't tell me TR2 and FF15 are small or indies games...

Some others games will have their fps improved greatly like BF1 because of the 33% CPU boost or slightly like for instance Horizon zero dawn according to the devs. So even if Sony won't market the Pro as a solution to have better framerate than OG PS4...In many cases and already big games, the Pro is significantly (or slightly) improving framerates...

I have read testimonies of people who have compared both versions of Titanfall 2 on a 1080p screen and really can't go back to the OG PS4 version. Apparently downsampled 1440p is a very noticeable improvements from ~900p on a 1080p screen so I think in many cases like Titanfall 2 the Pro versions will have much better graphics (instead of better fps).

 

[iroboto]

Well that's not true anymore. That was what Sony announced before the release of their machine to calm down owners of PS4 but now things are actually different.

Some games will have 2x (or near) framerate improvements (TR2, Infamous, FF15 and I think many more like I suspect for instance God of War 4). Even if the framerate won't be locked, no 3D AAA games on consoles have a locked framerate anyways. None.

And don't tell me TR2 and FF15 are small or indies games...

Some others games will have their fps improved greatly like BF1 because of the 33% CPU boost or slightly like for instance Horizon zero dawn according to the devs. So even if Sony won't market the Pro as a solution to have better framerate than OG PS4...In many cases and already big games, the Pro is significantly (or slightly) improving framerates...

I have read testimonies of people who have compared both versions of Titanfall 2 on a 1080p screen and really can't go back to the OG PS4 version. Apparently downsampled 1440p is a very noticeable improvements from ~900p on a 1080p screen so I think in many cases like Titanfall 2 the Pro versions will have much better graphics (instead of better fps).

It comes down to eye of the beholder. I can't make those calls for purchasers. What if you never saw the product side by side... ever? How many people (casuals/parents) will be able to sufficiently spot that difference and be relate it to the cost value increase? Everyone you've talked to or read about, are probably men in their mid 30s, with tons of disposable income, and have been following the graphics scene for some time.

I'm not saying it's not a great deal, I'm not saying things aren't going to get better with 4Pro. It will. But that doesn't mean 4Pro will cannibalize PS4.

Like we're talking about a $249 PS4 Slim + Uncharted vs $399 with no games.
The savings are $150 outright, more than with a game, you're lookign at $200. For $50 more than (4PRO + Game), I can buy a PS4 Slim UC4 bundle + a XB1 BF1 bundle, and get 2 games and 2 consoles this black friday.

I can't make this stuff up, I'm looking at the deals right now. So if someone isn't a die hard, I can see them having a tough time with these decisions.

 

[Globalisateur]

Of course there is always the subjective point of view of what is an improvement. But my point was that before the release of the machine it was not first meant to improve framerates but apparently it already does that and it will continue to do so for important games, not surprisingly often for third parties games because those devs just realised that most people owning 1080p TVs won't be interested into downsampling stuff, only higher fps which is an easier marketing checklist than vague downsampling or higher IQ. At least for now.

Cough** And because most third party publishers (thank god) don't really want to sell 4K TVs to their customers (or UHD blu-ray players for that matter), but that's another discussion, sorry I digress.**cough

But higher framerates are an objective improvement, aren't they ? The eternal PC vs console argument...

 

[Rangers]

Not everyone sees it that way. $100 more is not trivial for everyone.

People will ask themselves whether they will actually benefit from an additional $100 expenditure for the graphical clarity or improvements, or whether that $100 is better spent on elsewhere.

Video cards are very much the same thing. There is a 1080/980 but the 1070/970 always sells better. That extra $100 is always just $100 too much for most peoples needs.

I dont know video card prices offhand anymore but typically in PC components you end up paying a lot for a little more performance towards the top. And you have a litany of choices, with typically a price/power sweet spot towards the middle. Consoles so far, you will have just a binary choice with a vast gulf in power and a small difference in price.

Consoles, you'll be paying with PS4 Pro currently 33% more for 2-3X performance. I dont know that the video card analogy is valid, but if it was it was, how do you think that battle would go? A 299 card vs a 2(+)X as fast 399 card? And those are the only two options? In Scorpio we dont know pricing, but it will be 3X as fast as original XBO. With 4GB more RAM and some people even think a Zen CPU.